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10 Comments

 
 

Children of Lindórinand

maeglin - 05 Jul 09 - 1:42 PM

General Comment

Darth.  Why would the Lindas ever give up their children in the first place?  Surely they would either die fighting such evil, or flee?  I just can't see any group of Elves, and Avarin/Nandorin types least of all, passively accepting such a situation, even once.  They would no more give up their children than they would willingly (without first being tortured and made into 'thralls') serve Sauron or Morgoth.  It's also hard to imagine Celeborn implementing this 'civilizing' policy in such a heavy-handed way.  Galadriel, perhaps, but not Celeborn - he simply wouldn't allow it.

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Children of Lindórinand

Darth Fingon - 14 Aug 09 - 9:03 AM

General Comment

I have to say, I'm more than a little amazed at the negative comments this story is gathering.  Especially considering I have far worse stories that receive only praise.  Oh well.

Bel Wrote: I'm afraid that this story fails to consider what has been published about Elves, marriage and children (see The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II) in Morgoth's Ring)

It doesn't fail to consider.  It considered, and then discarded, for one important reason: as far as I see it, L&C cannot be considered absolute canon because it was not written by Elves, and not written during a time period when Elves lived in Middle-earth.  This is a text produced by a Dark Ages English mariner, which expresses his interpretation of Elvish culture.  It is therefore hearsay and about as accurate as any short essay on Asian culture written by a random American on vacation in Thailand.  I won't argue that some points are most likely valid (specifically, the ones about Elven biology), but everything else is filtered through Eriol's eyes.  Whatever he says about Elves, you have to understand that it's from his point of view, as he compares them to his own life and people in England.

And there are further problems when one takes into account that Elvish culture could have changed (and very likely did) in the thousands of years between the Third Age and when this essay was written.  Not to mention that L&C focuses very acutely on Noldorin culture on Tol Eressea.  What of the other kindreds of Elves?  Surely they have some different ideas ways of life.  Finally, consider that the Elves could have given false information in order to portray themselves more favourably to their visitor.

Bel continued: and also fails to take into account the nature of Galadriel, who Tolkien said in a letter as late as 1973 was "unstained: she had committed no evil deeds."

According to whom, though?  In her own view, and that of the dominant culture at the time, this story shows her committing no evil deeds.  Those who find her actions 'evil' are a small minority who will soon cease to exist.  As far as Galadriel understands, what she is doing is the right thing, a charitable thing: giving unfortunate children a chance for a better life through education.  Because this story is told from the POV of one of the affected Silvans, of course it's full of anti-Galadriel-and-Celeborn rhetoric.  Remember, everything that Targol says about them is not necessarily true: those are only his opinions on events.  He thinks that G&C are taking the children becaue they want to destroy Silvan culture, but we never see G&C's actual reasoning behind their actions.  If the story were told from Haldir's POV, things would read very differently, and G&C would by no means seem like villains.  They'd still be making a mistake, and going about their business very poorly, but not for evil purposes.

Further: Ascribing what is effectively modern human cultural and "racial" cleansing to Elves, especially to Elves of this period who would have lived through two pride-wrought, world-wrenching sunderings of life and land, is not canon - it's AU and should be marked as such.

In a narrow view of canon, perhaps.  Not in mine.  By my standards, an AU is a story that explicitly changes canon fact (not canon interpretation; this is important) for the purpose of exploring a blatant 'what if' scenario:  what if Sauron had regained the Ring, what if Feanor had lived, what if the Elves had never left Cuiviénen.  This story is not an AU; it does not contradict any irrefutable canon fact. It's merely an unpopular and controversial gapfiller.

I also think we have very different views on what is 'canon'.  Because I like to make things as difficult as possible for myself while at the same time increasing the odds that random readers will hate my work, I tend to follow Tolkien's earlier drafts.  In fact, a good percentage of my personal canon interpretation is BoLT-based.  Not only does this mean that I make different choices than most people on such important topics as the number of children Fingon had (two), it also means that my stories are significantly darker than the usual standard.  In the earlier drafts, Arda was a considerably darker and bloodier place than it eventually became.  Have a look at Makar and Measse, or the story of Morgoth and Arien, or the older tales of Eol and Aredhel.  I find these stories to be far more interesting than the sterile 'noble Elf' ideal that shows up later, after Tolkien did a mass PGification of his Legendarium.

Finally: And it's an AU that I find to be so perverse and repellent that it's going to be a long time before I risk looking at another one of Darth's stories.

Whatever you do, don't read any of my Glorfindel arc.  I didn't label that one as AU either, and it's epic badfic about Glorfindel being Fingon's underage, drug-addicted, incestuous love-slave.  The first story in the series won an award for 'Worst Character Assassination', and subsequent installments only go downhill from there.  I even went so far as to write Glorfindel of Rivendell and Glorfindel of Gondolin as two separate people, who actually meet in one of the chapters.

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Children of Lindórinand

Agape4Gondor - 15 Aug 09 - 9:03 AM

General Comment

I think upon Elros and Elrond and Eluréd and Elurín.

Need further be said of Galadriel's people?

This story was harrowing and horrifying - but I have always wondered at the regime that so affronted the Silvan Elves, forcing many of them to leave...

Well done.

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Children of Lindórinand

oshun - 06 Jul 09 - 10:45 PM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

This is an excellent story and I found it compelling. I think this account, although it is not in all its details exactly how I might have imagined it, to be plausible, especially if one bases one's logic on the entirety of Tolkien's work instead of the more cursory knowledge of the history of the Elves that can be gained from focusing on LotR alone. The story of the establishment and extension of realms like Lothlórien, Oropher/Thranduil's Greenwood/Mirkwood or even Rivendell is not covered in minute detail but can only be inferred. LotR focuses on the last days of the Elves in Middle-earth and there is not a lot of detailed information in it on their history.

I find the arguments that so-and-so character or Elven people could never have done this or that is often an attempt to look backward into Tolkien's history from the perspective of a later period.

The simplistic noble, wise Elf fanon closely held as canon by a lot of LotR readers does not stand up to the better documented history of the either the Sindar or the Noldor in Tolkien's writings on the First and Second Ages. Tolkien gave the Elves more complexity of character and contradictions than many fanfic writers are willing to allow them. Tolkien includes plenty of grey and black in their history, including that of the Sindar not simply the rebellious Noldor.

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Children of Lindórinand

maeglin - 07 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

Let me put it another way.  Celeborn and Galadriel's policy in this story would be likely to be counterproductive, and swiftly breed resentment to the point of rebellion.  Widespread kidnapping is not a policy a leader can implement unless they feel absolutely invulnerable (and usually, when they are finally assasinated or deposed, they find that they were vulnerable after all).  What reason would either G or C have to feel invulnerable?  Surely taking the Lindas' children away is not (ultimately) that much safer than trying to cheat a band of Dwarves!  G & C would have seen firsthand how some of Elu Thingol's more ham-handed decisions backfired on him. They may or may not have even been physically present in Doriath when Elu was slain in his own hall by the Naugrim, but they must have learned of that event.  It is very hard to imagine they would have learned nothing from it.  Certainly G & C were not always 'wise', but they weren't that dumb!  Note that I did not say that the Lindas were either noble or wise, but (as you well know) JRRT, not the 'fanon', was quite clear on how much the Elves valued their children.  In short, had G & C pursued such policies, they would not have lasted three Ages as high leaders.

  It was obviously a thought-provoking story.  I am aware that Darth is one of the more respected authors here on HASA.  I don't doubt that G & C did implement some sort of 'civlizing'/'Eldarization' (whichever term you prefer) policy in Lothlorien, but surely a more subtle one?  If you could point me to a reference contradicting the above, I'd appreciate it.

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Children of Lindórinand

Bel - 13 Aug 09 - 8:40 PM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

As much as I respect Darth as a writer, and as compelling as the opening paragraphs of this are, I stopped reading as soon as I realized what was happening. I'm afraid that this story fails to consider what has been published about Elves, marriage and children (see The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II) in Morgoth's Ring) and also fails to take into account the nature of Galadriel, who Tolkien said in a letter as late as 1973 was "unstained: she had committed no evil deeds." Ascribing what is effectively modern human cultural and "racial" cleansing to Elves, especially to Elves of this period who would have lived through two pride-wrought, world-wrenching sunderings of life and land, is not canon - it's AU and should be marked as such. And it's an AU that I find to be so perverse and repellent that it's going to be a long time before I risk looking at another one of Darth's stories.

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Children of Lindórinand

Nieriel Raina - 13 Aug 09 - 9:21 PM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

What a moving look at a possible way the Sindar may have assimilated the Silvan folk into their own. Dark and foreboding and told from the point of view of a father whose sons have been taken from him, Darth Fingon has weaved a masterful, if sad, tale of the people of the Golden Wood. Gripping from the first paragraph, we follow one family and the loss of their sons to those who take them to train them for the 'own good' in the ways of the Grey Elves. Told with such gripping emotion the reader cannot help but feel disgust for Celeborn and Galadriel for such arrogance, nor can they help but feel pity for the family whose sons have been taken, only to have one return so vastly different.

Darth Fingon has once again managed to write a politically gripping take on the different kindreds of the Elves, showing the possible differences in their thought processes and cultures through wonderfully crafted visuals as we see one son returned to his home village and the lengths he would go to make a point. Most definitely a different look at the brothers Haldir, Orophin and Rumil and how they might have been raised to become wardens for the Galadhrim, and one that leaves the reader in doubt about the true motives of those Western Elves. Most moving was the final quote by Haldir's father, his hope that one day the orcs would burn the Golden Wood to the ground is somewhat foretelling. Sad, but well worth reading.

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Children of Lindórinand

maeglin - 15 Aug 09 - 5:53 AM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

Darth, I gotta disagree with you.  I think what bothers people about this story is it feels so wrong.  I've read Lauron-Nama and many of your other stories and like them very much.  It's not a matter of 'good' or 'bad' writing - Children of Lindorinand is certainly well-written.  I personally have no problem with stories of Elves behaving badly, or even doing evil. But this particular sort of evil just seems to ring false, like (say) a story about Hobbits inventing a laser weapon.  Frankly, it calls to mind some particularly horrific policies implemented by real-life governments within living memory, which were, of course, also meant to 'benefit' people.  I would have been much less bothered by G&C simply killing any rebellious Silvans than implementing this particular policy.  And the intensity of the comments is because you are a good writer.  When a bad musician plays badly, no one cares, but when a skilled one strikes a false note, it is jarring.   

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Children of Lindórinand

maeglin - 15 Aug 09 - 10:25 AM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

Ah, Agape, but the Lord of the Galadhrim, named in this story, is Celeborn.  Celeborn of Doriath, the Sinda, who has seen firsthand the ruin brought by foolish policies like the ones G&C are supposed to have pursued in this story.  Celeborn would not have pursued such policies.  Or at least not JRRT's Celeborn.  Claims that this story is consistent with canon are false.

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Children of Lindórinand

kathie1441 - 14 Mar 10 - 9:03 AM

Ch. 1: Children of Lindórinand

Well, it's certainly an interesting theory. Nothing canon to back it up though. I'm curious though, where you came up with only the silvans rope walk. Legolas seemed to be saying any elf could do so but that the humans, hobbits and the dwarf would have a problem?

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