Henneth Annûn Story Archive

In the Introducing... You! thread, DL7 asked to be filled in on your pet Thorongil theories. As that thread is rather long, I thought I'd start a special thread just for those who like Aragorn under his Thorongil guise. Theorise away Cheers, Liz

 

Ah, yes, thank you. Thorongil strikes me as the coolest Aragorn guise. He's a younger, less-experienced, in-progress Striderized Elessar. Doesn't anyone else find that horribly prepossessing? Or is this simply my brand-new obsession being shiny? Dang it, I'm bit!

 

He = mine. Theories about what? I don't have any theories per se... I imagine Aragorn in the Thorongil days was less confident and less than he was during the Ring War, but not radically different. I don't think people's personalities change that much. I have trouble describing what that personality is -- I can write it instinctively, but he's so subtle and complex that he is hard to describe in like five words. Anyway, I don't see him as terribly ambitious or out to make anybody's life miserable (ie Denethor). I think he's trying to learn as much as he can about Gondor, figuring he might have to rule these people one day and also getting experience in a large army is never a bad thing. I doubt he intended to win the kingship there and then, since the Ring had no been found and he surely knew of Malbeth's prophecy. But he might have been trying to make friends and form alliance, set himself for some distant future in which he WOULD rule. Gee.... wouldn't it have been nice for him to make friends with the future Steward, figuring that when he became king he would need that person's allegiance and support. That ended badly. Those are some of my theories anyway. I come up with more as I need them for writing.

 

My pet Thorongil theories are getting worked out in "Star and Stone", if you're interested. Not that I'm anywhere close to updating the darned thing! But yeah, essentially what Gypsum said.

 

I feel Ecthelion was a father figure to 'Thorongil' and a considerable influence on the man Aragorn eventually became. No doubt he was already well versed in the arts of war and ancient lore when he came to Gondor but Ecthelion taught him a lot about practical politics and government that he could never have learned from Elrond or his Ranger mentors in the North. No doubt this closeness between his father and the stranger is what turned Denethor against Thorongil. D seems to have been very possessive of those he loved and failed to see that Ecthelion's affection for his Captain didn't take anything away from his love for his son. Just as decades later he couldn't understand that Faramir's fondness for his mentor Gandalf didn't mean he loved his father less.

 

I thought I'd start a special thread just for those who like Aragorn under his Thorongil guise. Dang it, Liz! You know I have lots of pet Thorongil theories. I also have a partially cranched and being reconstructed computer system, some Real Life (tm) stuff to deal with, at least four other stories partially written, some challenge story thoughts bouncing around, and a whole fanzine to format in another fandom in the next two weeks before MediaWestcon. Don't do this to me now! I don't have time. Gwynnyd

 

As DoD seems to have come back to life.... Gwynnyd - I know you now have a whole load of new pet Thorongil theories about what he was up to after he left Gondor following the Corsair raid and before he arrived in Lorien a few weeks later. He certainly packed a lot into a few weeks. Do you or does anyone else want to share and see what others think? Cheers, Liz

 

He certainly packed a lot into a few weeks. Do you or does anyone else want to share and see what others think? Shame on you Liz!! That nuzgul flinging wasn't too carefully veiled! Dang...I need to just leave this forum now Cheryl

 

I had a bizarre notion about Thorongil and Denethor a little while ago. No, not that one. I was speculating on whether, perhaps, instead of being jealous of Thorongil, Denethor might have hero-worshipped him a little bit - even though they were nearly the same age - because Thorongil had Been Out There in the world and Done Things that Denethor would never get a chance to do. And then, when Thorongil took off, Denethor was so angry about it that all the positive feelings went sour. Okay, so it's really AU... and I'll probably never write it because I hate having my stories contradict each other. But it was a thought. Cel

 

I could see this theory AND Morwen's theory (about Denethor's being possessive about HIS father, and Ecthelion mentoring and favoring Thorongil made Denny very jealous and resentful). In fact, it strengthens Denethor's resentment if he thinks Thorongil is cool and has travelled farther than Denny has... It can be said that Thorongil and Denethor are, metaphorically (or symbolically), brothers fighting for a Father's approbation. They are also rival heirs to the lordship of Gondor. And the fact that they physically resemble each other and have similar gifts (keen intelligence, strategic abilities, military skills, knowledge of lore, perception) and are close in age just tightens the comparison. I personally think that Ecthelion knew, or figured out, who Thorongil really was.... I wish JRRT had told us more about Ecthelion; his actions certainly rippled down the years, impacting Boromir and Faramir and others. RAKSHA THE DEMON

 

This makes me think of a question: When Aragorn returned years later, wouldn't Denethor have recognized him? Also, that would most-likely tick the Steward off, since he would realize he had been lied to. CLF

 

>When Aragorn returned years later, wouldn't Denethor have recognized him? That is mentioned briefly-- Denethor knows who this mysterious Aragorn is, in RoTK, and says he will not bow to him. Gypsum, I think it was, suggested a nuzgul along these lines a few months back-- I can't recall what it was, but it came up in an IM conversation and she was making jokes about Aragorn grimly reflecting that he was totally screwed when he got to Minas Tirith and had to deal with Denethor, whose resentment of him was highly unlikely to have faded.

 

And, of course, Aragorn was fully expecting to face Denethor after the Pelannor, which is why he refused to enter the city. Thorongil is such an intriguing character; why aren't there more fics about him? Nightsky -- who is determinedly kicking off the Nuzguls, here.

 

"That is mentioned briefly-- Denethor knows who this mysterious Aragorn is, in RoTK, and says he will not bow to him. Gypsum, I think it was, suggested a nuzgul along these lines a few months back-- I can't recall what it was, but it came up in an IM conversation and she was making jokes about Aragorn grimly reflecting that he was totally screwed when he got to Minas Tirith and had to deal with Denethor, whose resentment of him was highly unlikely to have faded." First, Dragonlady: I don't think Aragorn would have thought that he was totally screwed when he got to Minas Tirith and had to deal with Denethor. Denethor had huge problems of his own, like tens of thousands of orcs, Southrons, Easterlings preparing to knock on his door (ding-dong, Grond calling!) and Air Nazgul buzzing from above. I don't think Aragorn would have worried that Denethor would have bothered to do much against someone bringing the Sword of Anduril and coming in with some high-placed allies and extra swords. Hmm. Thorongil, technically, was a deserter; but Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Chief of the Dunedain of Arnor, was not someone Denethor could necessarily throw in a dungeon with impunity. Nightsky - What Aragorn probably worried about, with good reason, was, how he would deal with Denethor AFTER Sauron was defeated, knowing full well that Denethor was not going to just bow meekly and hand over the throne. But Aragorn seemed to be firmly in a 'Beat Sauron First, then think about what comes afterward' military-command mindset, so he didn't do much planning about transitioning Gondor from the Steward's rule into the Kingship. Aragorn's decision not to march into Minas Tirith proclaiming himself the returned King after the Battle of the Pelennor was both politically astute and very humane. Aragorn knew that the City was demoralized, physically damaged, lost lots of brave men; he did not want to take advantage of the situation, he wanted to claim the Kingship as his absolute right, not a prize of war. And he wanted it done legally, with the Steward's assent. If Denethor had survived and resisted, I'm not sure what Aragorn would have done. Imrahil would have thrown in with Aragorn; Faramir probably would have fought for his father or abstained; there might have been war. Maybe a coup with minimal casualties, ending with Denethor under comfortable house arrest or a padded cell somewhere.... Of course, if Denethor had survived the Pyre, I doubt he would have allowed Aragorn entry into the City, and Faramir and Eowyn and Merry and many others would have died. Imrahil would have been very annoyed, as would many others if they knew that Denethor had prevented those handy hands-of-a-king-are-the-hands-of-a-healer from getting to the Houses of Healing and doing their handiwork... Aragorn is very, very, lucky that Boromir and Denethor did not survive the war. I also think he is very lucky that Faramir survived as Aragorn's biggest fan; as Faramir was popular and well-known in Gondor and Thorongil was a forty-year-old legend, Faramir's support could really help smooth the transition in the years following the glorious victory over Sauron. RAKSHA THE DEMON

 

And after Raksha's masterly analysis, it's time to mention the With One Voice challenge, which fits perfectly with these ideas. I won't repeat the full prompt here, but the basic idea is "Write a story, set any time after Aragorn's coronation, about characters who are less than delighted by the return of the King. Tell us their reasons, what they do about them, and what happens to them." Enjoy, Liz

 

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