Forum: Writing Mary Sue: the Mother of Challenges

Discussing: Legolas

Legolas

So you have chosen to undertake the challenge of writing a "Legomance." I did, too, so welcome to the Legolas-Mary Sue thread.

One of the things that I have noticed as I try to force Varwyn and Legolas to admit to some degree of feeling for each other, is that I really don't have a clear conception of the conditions under which Legolas would fall in love. This may not be such a problem, if I can get Varwyn to carry the romantic element, but is there anyone here who can give me a good, convincing little exposition of what sorts of situations might be romantic for an Elf and a mortal?

(Be it noted that in terms of Elven romance, I can't even clearly conceive of what Arwen was thinking when she fell in love, so this is by no means a problem restricted to Legolas.)

Another point that's giving me conniption fits is portraying Legolas in a manner which, while not precisely 'flirty', is certainly not the reserved Elf lord, and which could be construed as romantic. All without making him too human, of course. Helpful pointers, anyone?

 

 

Re: Legolas

Wee. Mary Sue. We likes it, precious.

I gave Legolas a girlfriend about seven years ago. Sárie was such an ordinary Elf I'm not even sure she classifies for Sue but, well, it classifies me as a Legomancer.

I think the main problem with writing a Legomance is that it's so easy to fall into the Mary Sue stereotypes. The Legolas I always pictured would never fall in love with a "sit and wait" princess like Arwen. He may admire princesses, but he would go for the ordinary girl who can be more than a trophey, but also a friend to him. The rabid Leg/Gim slasher in me says that what Leggy likes in Gimli he would like in his wife too, someone who's willing to walk down to Ithilien, rebuild the forest from zero and be an equal to him, as strong and intrempid.

You know, like a Mary Sue.

From that, I have this idea that the most romantic moments between Legolas and his girl, be her elf or mortal, would be like those best moments you have with your closest friend: inside jokes, laughter, small tokens that mean a lot, long into the night conversations... not half the amount of groping, dirty talking and senseless smut we see out there.

Leggy is rather like our current twenty-something guys: forgetting to fully grow up as they grow old. I see him letting this relationship grow for a long long time before thinking of these marriage stuff (hey, like Mike said, it took Elrond 1500 years to marry Celebrían), and the limits between their teenage-like friendship and their adult affair would always be faint.

But that's my take. There are who picture Leggy completely different.

 

 

Re: Legolas

The way I dealt with the question of what Elves are thinking when they fall in love was to make it a matter of not thinking at all. In Broken Arrow, Legolas has no conscious control over his feelings for Alathiel. They just are. His only control is what to do about them. In fact, given what Tolkien himself wrote about the mating habits of Elves, I don't find "love at first sight" outside the realm of possibility.

The other aspect I touched on in that story was Legolas' curiosity about human beings and his fascination with them. I assumed that since he's already travelled outside of Mirkwood and befriended a dwarf, that he would not have as many problems falling in love with a human.

BTW, I *deeply* question the assumption that all OFCs are automatically Sues.

peace...adrienne

 

 

Re: Legolas

Meep! But my mortal doesn't live that long! We cannot wait 1500 years for Legolas to decide he likes Varwyn--we can't even wait thirty.

This is where I get nervous that I'll miss the challenge point--to write a romance, as opposed to something romantic, if you'll permit me that distinction. Right now, Varwyn is responsible for the falling in love part, whereas Legolas is not sending me vibes that say "Hmm... potential." I'm thinking I'll hit "romantic" but not romance--in fact, at this point, I'm rather counting on it and have resorted to making that the plot point on which the story turns.

At least I think Varwyn qualifies as a good friend, though. Ideally, this fic would go from Varwyn's childhood through, say, her 25th or 26th year, and would gradually reveal how it came to be that she fell in love with Legolas. However, as I've said, I can't handle another novel right now. So I'm shooting for a short version, which is proving to be beast.

Adrienne said:
The way I dealt with the question of what Elves are thinking when they fall in love was to make it a matter of not thinking at all. In Broken Arrow, Legolas has no conscious control over his feelings for Alathiel. They just are. His only control is what to do about them. In fact, given what Tolkien himself wrote about the mating habits of Elves, I don't find "love at first sight" outside the realm of possibility.

Given Arwen, I can't say love at first sight is impossible either. The question is whether I can believably write that sort of attraction. I fear the mushiness factor--you will note that in any story I've written where romance occurs, I don't write the pivotal moment of realization. My stories start after the relationship has already been acknowledged by at least one party.

The other aspect I touched on in that story was Legolas' curiosity about human beings and his fascination with them. I assumed that since he's already travelled outside of Mirkwood and befriended a dwarf, that he would not have as many problems falling in love with a human.

I think any believable Legolas fic is going to have to bring that out, somehow.

BTW, I *deeply* question the assumption that all OFCs are automatically Sues.

Oh, I agree. But since the challenge is called "The Mary Sue Challenge", that's the term I'm using. If you mosey on over to "Theoretical Perspectives" you'll note that that's a going concern for a number of people, and that there's a serious terminology issue. I don't think anyone's disagreeing that OFCs can be great characters, but even saying that "Sues aren't OFCs" is an example of question-begging for some: it implies that Mary Sue is necessarily bad, which judgment Ariel and Una at the least are prepared to argue.

Thanks for the input, both of you!

 

 

Re: Legolas

(I'm in a slightly odd mood tonight; apologies if any of this is more light-weight than what you wanted)

In my own "Legomance" (a term that I was unaware of before today, but that I'm determined to face bravely), I flat-out don't deal with what Legolas is thinking. He's an elf. He's so different from a human that there's no way I have any point of reference to what he's thinking. So I stay away from trying to write the thought processes of an elf who is attracted to / falling in love with a mortal and just present what he does, and what those around him think about it.

But we are talking about a delibrate Mary Sue, and elf mushiness comes with the genre, so...

Walks under trees at night, a given. Perhaps walks *in* trees, depending on how game/spry Varwyn is. Getting Legolas out of town if he's in town should loosen him up; taking him to the local greenhouse might help if getting out of town is not possible, although how an Elf views cultivars is something I've never seen explored. (Maybe they think roses are hideous, unnatural things and only Men would so torture a plant?)

The human female, more aware of time passing, would probably have to make all the initial moves. Modern-day forwardness is pretty standard in a Mary Sue, so don't worry about the sensibilities of the society she's stuck in. It may be that Legolas will have to be presented with the idea that a human finds him attractive in the first place, and once clued in discovers the concept to be a charming one. There could be classic cultural misgivings/misunderstandings about presents given and received. Perhaps Legolas gets the idea she's interested in him because she hands him a fallen leaf she thought was pretty, little knowing that in Mirkwood that's a declaration of intent.

In this you are probably discovering my own problem in writing a Legomance; I can't imagine Legolas being attracted to a human any more than I would be attracted to a collie. Sure, collies are cute and I don't mind having one around the house, but marrying even an especially attractive one and having little half-puppies with him? That's mind-boggling. But mind-boggling never stopped a true Mary Sue from achieving a lifetime of happiness with her Elf. Of course, said Elf is likely to die from grief as soon as M-S kicks the bucket, but that's not her problem and thus is one more thing that Mary Sue can safely ignore. ^_^

 

 

Re: Legolas

In this you are probably discovering my own problem in writing a Legomance; I can't imagine Legolas being attracted to a human any more than I would be attracted to a collie. Sure, collies are cute and I don't mind having one around the house, but marrying even an especially attractive one and having little half-puppies with him? That's mind-boggling. But mind-boggling never stopped a true Mary Sue from achieving a lifetime of happiness with her Elf. Of course, said Elf is likely to die from grief as soon as M-S kicks the bucket, but that's not her problem and thus is one more thing that Mary Sue can safely ignore.

Hm. An interesting theory, and one I'd be very tempted to buy, except that others can write Elf romances, so there must be something there that's close enough. I've always viewed the Elves as having the same range of emotion as human beings, but they are more constant in their affections, which run very deep and are rooted in the world in a way that Men's affections are not. But the emotions have to be comparably similar, or there wouldn't be the same basis for interaction, affection, friendship that we see between the two races, and especially in the First Age.

That pesky habit of Elves to die when their mortal mate is slain (well, technically, wasn't it only Lúthien and Arwen who did this? Eärendil and Tuor were both numbered among the Eldar in the end. Hey, I never noticed before, but both the men ended up becoming Elves, whereas both the women ended up surrendering their immortality. Intriguing. Why didn't I notice this before?) is a good reason to worry vis-à-vis an Elf-mortal romance. I like Isabeau's Elves, and they certainly aren't shackled by either the sex *is* marriage bond that Tolkien seemed to have in mind, nor by the deaths of their partners. I just don't know that I can pull that off in a short amount of space, so I'm going to go around that little problem.

Hm. If I'm good, I'll try to have a beta version of the story up before I leave for California on Tuesday.

Thanks for the thoughts!

 

 

Re: Legolas

I said:

Hm. If I'm good, I'll try to have a beta version of the story up before I leave for California on Tuesday.

Woo-hoo! Damn, but I'm good! First draft is up now, if you can believe it. Check it out in the Beta section. It's called "Dreams."

I've given a few questions for consideration in the summary in the fic, but if you have comments, please do click on the link to the forum and put them here.

 

 

Re: Legolas

The entry is there, but the chapter itself doesn't appear to be. And I was looking for something to distract me this morning!

 

 

Re: Legolas

I know I wasn't delirious last night... hm. [wanders off to go copy things to files some more.] I probably pasted it and then, in my weariness, managed to click something else without hitting "update."

[some seconds later]

Ok, it's up. Sorry, folks!

 

 

Dreams - feedback

I like the clever play with the genre, Dwim - Varwyn sees her love of Legolas as a childish thing that has to be set aside for the realities of 'everyday' and even dutiful love; which would be very hard, since she has grown up watching her parents live out one of the great romances of the age (and which involves both duty and passion). I liked that you brought that marriage to life just through a few passing remarks, and I think you could probably do the same with Arthros if you decided to give him more of a presence in the story - although perhaps his absence is in itself telling. I don't envy Varwyn swapping Gondor for Tharbad! - although I suppose Ithilien would have had a frontier feel itself for much of her life.

 

 

Dreams - feedback

I agree, to a certain extent, with Altariel's post (above this one). But...

Frankly, Dwimordene, I think Varwyn is too flawed (and therefore imperfect, and maybe even real) to be a Mary Sue. I think it might be a bit insulting, actually to call her one. Plus, doesn't Mary Sue always get her guy, even if she has to die?

I might have intepreted the story wrongly here... feel free to rebuke me.

BTW, Trivial it may be, but I found the image of Legolas imitating a pony quite frightening...

 

 

Re: Legolas

I can't imagine Legolas being attracted to a human any more than I would be attracted to a collie.

YES!!! That is exactly it! ROTFLMAO! This is exactly why I find hobbit/elf romances so incredibly unbelievable! HE HE HE...

There is a definite reason why there had been so few human/elf pairings in ME history! Most normal elves would probably be like "I just SOOO can't even GO there!..."

LOL!

Ariel (who will be giggling the rest of the day thinking of half puppies!)

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Klose said:

Frankly, Dwimordene, I think Varwyn is too flawed (and therefore imperfect, and maybe even real) to be a Mary Sue. I think it might be a bit insulting, actually to call her one. Plus, doesn't Mary Sue always get her guy, even if she has to die?

Hi Klose! Hey, I read your fic about the girl grabbing a jewel off of Smaug's carcass--was looking to see if Bard had *any* stories, and was very pleased to see him. Thank you for that.

Mary Sue. Ah yes. If you haven't yet joined the fray of opinions, I encourage you to check the "Theoretical perspectives" thread, started by our hermeneutical guru, Una. You'll find a number of different opinions (including my own) as to what Mary Sue is.

And I will say that I'd ordinarily agree with you--I don't view Varwyn as a Mary Sue, given that for me, Mary Sue is a negative epithet unless otherwise defined. However, the text of the Mary Sue Challenge makes it very clear that what is required is an OFC main character whose romance (or in this case, angsty lack thereof) is the focal point of the story. The OFC may be substituted for a very minor canonical (Ioreth, for example, and so help me if I can even *think* of another minor female character at this point--I blame lack of food for this failing), but that's it.

It's a very neutral definition of "Mary Sue" and (in my case) an ironical usage that challenges me to see what I can do with a major canonical character and an OFC. It's really rather fun--I don't normally touch the canonicals outside of their canonically-written relationship, and the two exceptions to this rule have been/are slash stories which I attempt to keep canonical as well. This is my first OFC 'romance,' so I'm glad that you and Una both find Varwyn believably flawed and realistic, as that was my aim. [Dwim makes another hash mark on bed post]

Thanks for your comments, and I hope you'll consider taking up a few other challenges, while I've got you here. The "Éowyn: Heroine or Deserter" could use a little more attention....


[Addendum] Legolas as pony: heh heh, awww, but can't you just imagine Legolas playing horsey with Faramir's six year-old daughter? And Faramir, for that matter, playing horsey with his daughter til he throws his back out? (Speaking as one who carted an eight year-old around on her back for most of the gardens of Versailles, I assure you, the urge does not go away just because the kid is now in third grade and weighs probably half as much as you do.)

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Una said:

I think you could probably do the same with Arthros if you decided to give him more of a presence in the story - although perhaps his absence is in itself telling.

I was originally going to give Arthros a personality, I swear I was. Then I realized that that would be a multi-chapter project, and ended up with him as sort of this vague place-holder entity whose role in the story is mostly for the reader to decide. I imagine he's a nice enough fellow--reminds Varwyn of Daddy in some ways (because girls do go for men who remind them of their fathers at least once in their lives, it seems), is ambitious, dutiful, eager to remake Tharbad into the crossroads commercial center it once was, and he is smitten by her. But I don't know what his favorite color is and couldn't tell you even how he proposed to Varwyn. :-S

So, do you think this works as an answer to the challenge, then? Any suggestions on what to do with the ending? It has finality, but it is quite abrupt--if I could sort of lead the reader down that path to that conclusion without using a dimensional hopper, I'd be happy.

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

If you feel adding more about Arthros would lead to another chapter, then I think you should keep him out - the focus isn't really him, poor chap! Except by his absence, or by what he is not (he's not a fool, he's not Legolas). Yes, I do think it answers the challenge.


Re: the ending:

I didn't find it too abrupt, to be honest. I have some small suggestions.

All things fade, and all things end... and it is time to stop dreaming, child: you are not an Elf. Time to stop dreaming; time to wake up!

How about:

All things fade, and all things end... and it is time to stop dreaming. You are not an Elf, you are not a child. It is time to stop dreaming; it is time to wake up!

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Una suggsted:

"All things fade, and all things end... and it is time to stop dreaming. You are not an Elf, you are not a child. It is time to stop dreaming; it is time to wake up!"

May I just snatch and grab that phrasing wholesale? I like it. The repetition is great in terms of showing Varwyn's mental state. I went back and reread it this afternoon, and it does feel less abrupt now than it did last night (ah, the curative power of sleep!). Yet I think this will be even more final.

Thanks!

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

May I just snatch and grab that phrasing wholesale?

Of course!

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Dwim said:

Hey, I read your fic about the girl grabbing a jewel off of Smaug's carcass--was looking to see if Bard had *any* stories, and was very pleased to see him. Thank you for that.

Really? Wow, thank you for reading it. I've grown quite fond of Bard. Something about grim, black-haired guys...


Mary Sue. Ah yes. If you haven't yet joined the fray of opinions, I encourage you to check the "Theoretical perspectives" thread, started by our hermeneutical guru, Una. You'll find a number of different opinions (including my own) as to what Mary Sue is.

Oops, my mistake. I think I'd better go check it out after I send this post...


And I will say that I'd ordinarily agree with you--I don't view Varwyn as a Mary Sue, given that for me, Mary Sue is a negative epithet unless otherwise defined. However, the text of the Mary Sue Challenge makes it very clear that what is required is an OFC main character whose romance (or in this case, angsty lack thereof) is the focal point of the story. The OFC may be substituted for a very minor canonical (Ioreth, for example, and so help me if I can even *think* of another minor female character at this point--I blame lack of food for this failing), but that's it.

It's a very neutral definition of "Mary Sue" and (in my case) an ironical usage that challenges me to see what I can do with a major canonical character and an OFC. It's really rather fun--I don't normally touch the canonicals outside of their canonically-written relationship, and the two exceptions to this rule have been/are slash stories which I attempt to keep canonical as well. This is my first OFC 'romance,' so I'm glad that you and Una both find Varwyn believably flawed and realistic, as that was my aim. [Dwim makes another hash mark on bed post]


Oh. In that case, Varwyn fits the bill! I like that you did the Mary Sue in an unusual way- it makes for much more interesting reading. In fact, I said something about how Mary Sue always gets her guy, right? Scrap that! Varwyn's story is much more ineresting than the usual (and boring) Sues...

BTW, I can't name another minor female character either. How Tolkien.


Thanks for your comments, and I hope you'll consider taking up a few other challenges, while I've got you here. The "Éowyn: Heroine or Deserter" could use a little more attention....

Ah, Dwimordene, will you never rest from your recruiting attempts? Well, I guess I'll try my hand at the Éowyn challenge, or the Winter Solstice one... whichever one works out first.


[Addendum] Legolas as pony: heh heh, awww, but can't you just imagine Legolas playing horsey with Faramir's six year-old daughter? And Faramir, for that matter, playing horsey with his daughter til he throws his back out?

Hmm... well, now that I think hard enough, I can see my perceptions of Faramir and Legolas on their elbows and knees, with a little girl on their backs... ah, reminds me of my own childhood days- well, my days of being a little girl, since I'm still technically a kid- except I didn't have a handsome elf as my pony. Some girls get all the luck.

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Klose said:

Really? Wow, thank you for reading it. I've grown quite fond of Bard. Something about grim, black-haired guys...

You're welcome. Do write Bard again soon. He's definitely under-written.

Re: grim, black-haired guys: They're a terrible weakness--almost as bad as chocolate! All they have to do is look at me with limpid grey eyes, and I cave to their demands for stories.

Ah, Dwimordene, will you never rest from your recruiting attempts? Well, I guess I'll try my hand at the Éowyn challenge, or the Winter Solstice one... whichever one works out first.

Nope. My job is to afflict you with nuzgul til you are brought to your knees (and your writing desk). Do try the Éowyn challenge. Or the Winter Solstice challenge. Or both!

I didn't have a handsome elf as my pony. Some girls get all the luck.

I didn't either. It's so unfair, which is, I suppose, why we write these stories. ;-)

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Hey Dwim!

Ok, I guess I better stop this before it becomes too OT... but I thought you might want to know that I have a possibly serious contender for the Mary Sue challenge! I'm not sure if I can get it done by the deadline, though.


-Klose

PS: Don't worry, I think I've still got something going for the Éowyn and Winter Solstice Challenges... I think...

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Klose announced:

but I thought you might want to know that I have a possibly serious contender for the Mary Sue challenge! I'm not sure if I can get it done by the deadline, though.

That's hardly OT. And that's excellent news. So which character is going to be the object of your OFC's affections? Legolas? If it's a character not represented yet in this Challenge forum, do feel free to start a thread based on him.

You do have until March 8th, so that's a good bit of time, even if it's a few chapters in length.

ANd you have nuzgul for two other challenges, possibly? Ah, the sound of plotbunnies biting! Write on!

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Dwim wrote:

So which character is going to be the object of your OFC's affections? Legolas? If it's a character not represented yet in this Challenge forum, do feel free to start a thread based on him.

Well, heh, this is an unusual one... My OFC has *drumroll* TWO characters sort of fighting over her... people are going to kill me for this, but they're Maedhros and Fingon.

*ducks from the Maedhros-Fingon slashers*

I figured, hey, since this is a M.S challenge, Maedhros and Fingon could be straight, right? I understand that it's unusual in that they are both Silmarillion characters... I don't think anyone else has got a Silm. M.S. Speaking of which, I would like to see a Turin-OFC romance. Now that's a good Mary Sue prospect! Any takers? Anyone? Anyone at all?


-Klose

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Hey, a Silm fic where the men are straight. Wow! It could answer the pressing question, where did all the little Elves come from.

 

 

Re: Legolas

Riiki wrote:

In this you are probably discovering my own problem in writing a Legomance; I can't imagine Legolas being attracted to a human any more than I would be attracted to a collie. Sure, collies are cute and I don't mind having one around the house, but marrying even an especially attractive one and having little half-puppies with him? That's mind-boggling. But mind-boggling never stopped a true Mary Sue from achieving a lifetime of happiness with her Elf. Of course, said Elf is likely to die from grief as soon as M-S kicks the bucket, but that's not her problem and thus is one more thing that Mary Sue can safely ignore.

One of the ideas I intend to play around with much much further down the line in "Powers and Chances" (my OFC and, eventually, Legolas fic in beta) is that the way Legolas is torn between the call of the Sea and his love of Middle-earth by the end of LoTR gives him a vulnerability to being attracted to a mortal woman; someone who is very earth-bound, practical, sensual, about as different from an Elf as could be. Someone whose hroa and fea, if you want to use the terms an Elf might think in, are so closely bound together that Legolas can't separate the two. (How and if soul-bonding occurs in such circumstances between an Elf and a mortal is an idea I am still having a lot of fun getting my head round.)

The idea that the Sea's call is so intense that Legolas doesn't know how long he will be able to resist it, if true, also provides a kind of parallel to mortality. He doesn't know when he will leave Middle-earth, and he's not sure how much choice he will have in the matter.

As for children - I quite agree that's a really, really sticky one. Legolas and my OFC will have none, and it will be one of the difficult, painful things about their relationship (unlike in Mary-Sue-verse, mortal/Elven relationships are fraught with sorrow, as we know). For one thing, it's not clear to me whether the offspring of an Elf (except Elros' line) and a mortal would be mortal or elven itself; I doubt the parents would even know. A mortal child would age and die long before its Elven parent. An Elven child would either have to be left behind in Middle-earth when Legolas sailed, leaving it in a possibly hostile mortal world, or be torn from its mother (assuming Legolas sailed before said mother's death, which he well might if the lure of the Sea proved too strong) to be taken to Valinor. Neither good options. So no half-elven offspring, at least in my fic...

 

 

Re: Dreams - feedback

Mike, you're being catty!

Ang

 

 

Re: Legolas

(Mac user here. The 'edit message' feature doesn't seem to work with Mac and IE, or I'm being dense, which isn't out of the question. Hence a paste-and-copy approach for the quote.)

>One of the ideas I intend to play around with much much further >down the line in "Powers and Chances" (my OFC and, eventually, >Legolas fic in beta) is that the way Legolas is torn between the call of >the Sea and his love of Middle-earth by the end of LoTR gives him a >vulnerability to being attracted to a mortal woman; someone who is >very earth-bound, practical, sensual, about as different from an Elf as >could be.

*Nods* In my own "Legomance" fic I use Legolas' "call of the sea" afflication as an explanation for how the impossible happens. Honestly, though, I find myself fighting the premise every step of the way. I had an outline from the beginning and I'm sticking to it, but I have to be careful when I'm writing not to think about the whole elf-human relationship too much. If I do, the logic circuits in my brain kick in and all ability to write about the subject shuts down.

>An Elven child would either have to be left behind in Middle-earth >when Legolas sailed, leaving it in a possibly hostile mortal world, or >be torn from its mother (assuming Legolas sailed before said >mother's death, which he well might if the lure of the Sea proved too >strong) to be taken to Valinor. Neither good options.

No, neither of them *are* good options, are they? But both *are* options. (insert Evil Grin here)

 

 

Re: Legolas

In this you are probably discovering my own problem in writing a Legomance; I can't imagine Legolas being attracted to a human any more than I would be attracted to a collie. Sure, collies are cute and I don't mind having one around the house, but marrying even an especially attractive one and having little half-puppies with him? That's mind-boggling.

It is mind-boggling, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Quite apart from Aragorn/Arwen - have you read any of Bellatrys/Philosopher At Large's Leithian Script?

She tackles head on (Act III Scene VI is an example I like) the question of how an Elf (Luthien) can love a mortal (Beren); and indeed how said Elf's mother, who was a goddess for heaven's sake - as Bellatrys beautifully puts it, not just immortal but An Immortal - could love an Elf, which is surely just as enormous a cultural leap. I can't really find extracts that work because it's all dialogue, but Finduilas puts all the obvious arguments for why it must be mad and can't possibly work, and Luthien answers them all - "he was someone I could never have imagined, a strange dominion given to me alone to explore, and know, and understand, and that I could never have dreamed such richness existed..."

I'm not sure whether what you were saying in your previous post was that because love between an Elf and a Mortal is mind-boggling it's incredibly difficult to write - in which case I'd wholeheartedly agree with you - or that you just don't think it's ever going to happen, in which case I have to respectfully disagree..

And anyone who is wrestling with the how/if/why of such a relationship, I do recommend that scene of The Leithian Script - if nothing else it presents just about all the issues, whether or not you agree with Bellatrys's take on them...

 

 

Re: Legolas

I was refering to the impossibility of a within-canon Legomance in general, and I say that as a contributor to the Legomance genre. ^_^ But at this point it's time for me to retire from the debate. I find it impossible to deal with the concept seriously, so I risk insulting (or frightening off!) most of my fellow fanfic writers by continuing.

 

 

Re: Legolas

Ok, I have added a little bit to "Dreams."

The intention is to make the ending more like an ending, and to give just a taste of Legolas's view on the matter of Varwyn.

So the question is: does it work? Does this finish off the story in a satisfactory manner? Is it believable?

Stylistically, is this too dry? Does it feel lacking?

All comments welcome.

 

 

Re: Legolas

Dwim, I like the additions you have made. It is a better finish to the story, and although it makes Legolas more sophisticated in human emotional relationships than I would have seen him, it is believable. I don't find it too dry.

I did expect one more sentence in either of the first two paragraphs of the epilogue, to the effect that when Eowyn had transferred her love it had been very sucessful, thus leaving the reader with a bit more promise that Varwyn might be as successful.

The last sentence was perfect.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Legolas

Lyllyn said:

I did expect one more sentence in either of the first two paragraphs of the epilogue, to the effect that when Eowyn had transferred her love it had been very sucessful, thus leaving the reader with a bit more promise that Varwyn might be as successful.

I had tried to work that in when I was messing around with this final part, but felt as though I would be beating the reader over the head by making the comparison. Also, I'm not sure I want it to be clearly indicated that Varwyn will learn to love Arthros alone.

Nevertheless, I think you're right to point out that readers will be looking for some sort of explicit comparison between Varwyn and Éowyn. To address that, the line I've added hopefully will both satisfy reader expectation without making it a certainty that Varwyn will do as her mother did.

Thanks for your comments!

 

 

Re: Legolas

Beautiful. That did the trick.

 

 

Re: Legolas

So the question is: does it work? Does this finish off the story in a satisfactory manner? Is it believable?

Stylistically, is this too dry? Does it feel lacking?


It works and stylistically, I think it matches the rest of the story. The problem for me is that, in the first part there was one paragraph I couldn't understand. And in the new part there's a paragraph I can't understand. And, I think, it's the one that addresses how Legolas feels about Varwyn the most. At least I think that's what it does. I got lost in it.

But I understood the rest of the new stuff and I think it has the right feeling.

--Ainaechoiriel

 

 

Re: Legolas


I have to say that I can't agree with this viewpoint at all! I think it would be far more akin to someone in the eighteenth or nineteenth century marrying someone from a different racial background. In those days it would be considered outrageous even shocking, particularly if undertaken by someone from a family of high standing - which let's face it most of Tolkien's characters are. Whereas nowadays, hardly anyone would bat an eyelid.
I accept that there is the difference in life spans, but since elves and men can have offspring they are clearly quite close biologically. My personal view is that it doesn't happen too often more for cultural reasons than anything else. It's rare that elves and men of different sexes have any opportunity to meet and get to know each other so as to 'fall in love'. I also offer the suggestion that it would be much more common among 'ordinary' folk than the nobility of the land, but we just don't hear about it.

 

 

In Forums

Discussion Info

Intended for: General Audience

This forum is open to all HASA members. It is read-only for the general public.

Membership on HASA is free and it takes only a few minutes to join. If you would like to participate, please click here.

If you are already a member, please log in to participate.

« Back to Writing Mary Sue: the Mother of Challenges