Henneth Annûn Story Archive

Welcome to the classifieds section of the forum. Dying to know if anyone knows of a story about X somewhere on the net? Place your query here! Mine is, on behalf of a HASA reader: Does anyone know of any story, hosted anywhere, that looks at Aragorn's original journey into Moria (the one referenced in FOTR, when he notes that he, too, once passed the Dimrill gates but the memory is "very evil" and he doesn't want to go back)? I know Cassia and Sio have one, but are there others? If so, where? Many thanks. P.S. If you don't know of any others, will you write me such a story? I mean, the HASA reader who was seeking it obviously deserves one, don't you think?

 

P.S. If you don't know of any others, will you write me such a story? I mean, the HASA reader who was seeking it obviously deserves one, don't you think? Dwim, shame on you! You're going to have to disguise your nuzgul flinging a LOT harder than that if you don't want people to notice! But I do know a couple of people we should fling this one at.... Cheers, Liz (And you'll be pleased to hear I had to wrestle a Beregond nuzgul you set on me a while ago back into its cage the other night after it escaped when I accidentally read some old posts here.... And disappointed to hear I had my Mithril ankle guards and gauntlets on at the time.)

 

But I do know a couple of people we should fling this one at.... AHHHH!! Get away from me with that! *ducking nuzgul and shooing it towards someone else...Gwynnyd perhaps?* That is an interesting idea... Crap. *watching nuzgul circle like a vulture* Cheryl

 

But you were claiming you didn't have enough interesting subplots for Aragorn for your Aragorn/Legolas friendship fic. Weren't you? Would you rather I came up with some other suggestions for Aragorn subplots instead? Cheers, Liz *sauntering off, whistling innocently*

 

*ducking nuzgul and shooing it towards someone else...Gwynnyd perhaps?* No, no, not me!!! I have NO idea why Aragorn went to Moria. Honest! That part of his life is as dark as the mines as far as I am concerned. I don't know of any reasion why he couldn't have gone there with Legolas and you know what Legolas was doing MUCH better than I do, Cheryl. I'm SURE Legolas will tell you what they were doing. Just ask him! Aragorn is being sulky at me right now, and not answering anything I ask. (hmm, sulky Ranger.... urk!) Sorry. Gwynnyd

 

But you were claiming you didn't have enough interesting subplots for Aragorn for your Aragorn/Legolas friendship fic. Weren't you? Gack! You keep flinging these complicated subplots at me and I'll never finish the bugger! Would you rather I came up with some other suggestions for Aragorn subplots instead? You do, and I'll fling Faramir, Denethor and any other nuzguls I can think of right back at you! Cheers, Liz *sauntering off, whistling innocently* Innocent? Ha! I don't know of any reasion why he couldn't have gone there with Legolas and you know what Legolas was doing MUCH better than I do, Cheryl. I'm SURE Legolas will tell you what they were doing. Just ask him! Aragorn is being sulky at me right now, and not answering anything I ask. Ahh, but there is no indication by Legolas that he had been there before. Besides, a sulky mood is *perfect* for Moria. Go get 'em, Gwynnyd! Cheryl *searching frantically for her mithril ankle guards...*

 

You do, and I'll fling Faramir, Denethor and any other nuzguls I can think of right back at you! Well, I just managed to tick something off in my nuzgul notebook, so I guess that means I'm ready to be assaulted by at least two new nuzgul. *sigh* Cheers, Liz *kicking Cheryl's mithril ankle guards further under the sofa*

 

I don't know of any reasion why he couldn't have gone there with Legolas [snip] Ahh, but there is no indication by Legolas that he had been there before. I don't think Legolas would necessarily have to go into Moria. Could he have planned to go with Aragorn, but then Legolas gets called away for some reason? Assuming they're approaching from the east (and I think they'd have to be, since Aragorn doesn't seem to know the opening words), maybe Legolas notices something about orcs leaving the Misty Mountains and heading for Mirkwood, so he thinks he has to return and inform people? Besides, Elves attract balrogs like hobbits attract magic rings. Best not to have him with you on that trek through Moria. On the other hand... Besides, a sulky mood is *perfect* for Moria. Go get 'em, Gwynnyd! I quite agree. I think you'd do this story well, too, Gwynnyd. Could I at least talk you into drabbling what made him decide to go? Your drabble about Aragorn asking Legolas to join the Fellowship was simply superb, and I think you'd write this drabble really well. Marta

 

Cheers, Liz *kicking Cheryl's mithril ankle guards further under the sofa* Ah! I knew you had them! Cheryl *crawling under the couch frantically...*

 

I think you'd do this story well, too, Gwynnyd. Could I at least talk you into drabbling what made him decide to go? Sob! No really. It's not that I'm reluctant to step up and write this, I really have NO CLUE why, when or how he did it. I promise to continue to have my evil, twisted imagination work on it, but I don't know!!! Gwynnyd

 

 

But Liz, there really *is* a HASA reader this time. Truly. Ask Lyllyn, she will vouch for me. But in any case, I take it that no one has seen any Aragorn in Moria stories out there on the great wide internet? I can't imagine why this isn't already in the Hutch. God knows I've got my own pet theory with an outline waiting for the day when the muse crawls back out of the Desert of the Real (life). I was wondering about this way back when I was still writing "Roots". Hm. Maybe I'll just go check that Hutch again, and if there's really no Moria nuzgûl there, well then, *obviously* there needs to be.

 

Heh. Desert of the Real (life). I think my muse has set up camp there too, Dwim. Sigh. In any case, I too would really like to see someone write Aragorn-in-Moria (the First Time). What was he doing there? What did he encounter that he is so reluctant to talk about? And why does he tell Gandalf in particular to beware? I suppose that could just be the King's gift of foresight coming into play...so many questions.

 

I've always wanted to read that story too - and wondered why there weren't dozens of them. Avon

 

Maybe there aren't many of them (or only the one) because it's really hard to work out the where, when and why. And 'cause it's unlikely that Legolas was with him. Hm, maybe the two Els were there... This nuzgul might need to go for the throat rather than the ankle.

 

Gack! Jeannie, Avon and Elvenesse, you three are definitely NOT helping! (g) This one is definitely going for my throat...*sigh* Could be a while before I have anything though. Cheryl

 

This one is definitely going for my throat...*sigh* Could be a while before I have anything though There's a blood transfusion special at the Hutch: sign up for a nuzgûl, get a free pint (of O + or -) and graham crackers for your trouble. "The First Journey in the Dark" is just waiting for new victims... I'm with Avon & Jeannie: this is a hard one to figure out in terms of motive and means. Otherwise, there'd surely be more on the topic.

 

Oooh! You've hooked me! This time, I actually am going to finish a story for a challenge. A lot of the time, when I write a story, I'll use the movie canon, as well as some of the book canon. The thing, though, is that I was eleven when I began reading the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and while I was just beginning the Two Towers (I was probably on page four), I saw the Fellowship of the Rings at the theatre. What I'm getting at is that, since I hadn't even finished the books yet, the lines between the movie canon and the book canon became blurred to me. Whenever I read a fanfiction, I tend to picture the movie characters. Please don't burn me alive, anyone! I'm going to read them again, really! *twitches*

 

Maybe there aren't many of them (or only the one) because it's really hard to work out the where, when and why. And 'cause it's unlikely that Legolas was with him. Hm, maybe the two Els were there... And all I can think of are really *bad* stories: like the one where he went in with the triplets and came out with the twins. ;) Avon

 

Arghh, and here I thought I had that particular plotbunny defeated with my secret weapon labelled 'lack of ideas'. Sigh. The little bugger is persistant. Maybe there's someone willing to share the pain? In order to tackle this one, I'd surely need someone to discuss possible story ideas. fliewatuet (fervently ignoring the little voice complaining about unfinished stories and lack of time ...)

 

Hey CLF, It is strictly forbidden that we pull a Monty Python on you ("She's a witch! BURN HER!"). I think I read the books when I was in junior high--one after the other, with a break when I couldn't get at RoTK until my godmother lent the cloth-bound hardback to me. Had I seen a movie at that point, I probably would have the same "blurring" effect. Anyhow, though, just think of this as a good opportunity to do some further exploration. I'm so glad to see *one* other person has joined me in adopting this bunny. Personally, my theory is this: someone (several someones) has to do a preliminary survey of the mines before recolonization can occur, right? My outline calls for setting this up by dealing with the old Mercs nuzgûl as well, in a very particular manner. So assuming my life gets less busy and I can actually write something creative again, that's where I'll be taking this sucker. Other theories?

 

Whenever I read a fanfiction, I tend to picture the movie characters. Please don't burn me alive, anyone! I'm going to read them again, really! *twitches* Don't worry about it, CLF. I'm a big fan of both the movies and the book, and recognize the differences between the two. When I read the book, or write a story (or read one for that matter) I see the movie characters in my head. Cheryl

 

Other theories? Well, I have a few ideas about young Aragorn, who probably wasn't as wise and experienced (maybe a bit more impulsive) than the LOTR Aragorn we all know and love. I don't know for sure, this is part of a MUCH larger story, and this scene is quite a ways off yet, but I have some ideas for why he'd go into Moria. It had to be a darn good reason for him to venture in there. Cheryl

 

 

What if someone he loved died, or something like that? For example, say for some reason, he's possible "second love," (considering that at the time, Arwen did not love young, twenty-something year old Aragorn) died there, or something? Just a very vague idea . . . CLF

 

Hmm ... I see even less reasons for Aragorn's lover to venture into the mines than I see for Aragorn himself (especially if that lover is female). Not to mention that I think it highly unlikely that Aragorn had another lover before he knew that Arwen loved him (put that's just my personal opinion about Aragorn's love interests ). But I agree that it must have been something pretty traumatic that had happened there, more than just a run in with some Orcs. And I think that the whole episode took place before Balin and company entered Moria (that is before 2989). Otherwise he would have made some educated comments during the Council of Elrond when the Dwarves told about not having had word from their kin who went back to Moria for close to thirty years (since he passed through the Dimrill Gate he would have either encountered Orcs or Dwarves if he had ventured there at a later date). Other than that, I am still drawing blanks ... fliewatuet

 

What if Aragorn was scouting out the mines or something, and he came across some kind of mass grave (s)? You're right, though . . . I don't see any reason for Aragorn's "lover" to go hang out in the Mines . . .unless she wanted to have tea with the Balrog. That's another idea for a story . . . CLF

 

What if Aragorn was scouting out the mines or something, and he came across some kind of mass grave (s)? I don't know ... (I fear I'm going to play devil's advocat here). First of all, I don't think that Aragorn could be easily shaken, even in his younger years. A grave of sorts might have churned his stomach, if it was rather fresh., but would not have left him traumatised. But that's just my opinion. Second, who would have been buried there? Moria was abandoned for a long time (the Tale of the Years, Appendix B, RotK gives 2799 as the date of a great battle between Dwarves and Orcs before the East-gate of Moria, and there's no mentioning of Dwarves living in Moria between that date and the arrival of Balin). As far as things are concerned that I would believe would shake Aragorn to the core, I think it would need to be a combination of things: Darkness, hunger, exhaustion, probably injury and a profound feeling of dread caused by the presence of the Balrog (even though I firmly believe that Aragorn never met that creature before the Fellowship did). Not to mention a good measure of claustrophobia. Maybe he was trapped beneath something for a time and feared that he couldn't get out? Just tossing around some random ideas, fliewatuet

 

Yes, that is a good idea. Having Aragorn (or anyone, for that matter) trapped in the Mines, afraid that they wouldn't get out, could traumatize anyone. Perhaps you could have a flashback of him as a child, feeling claustrophobic. CLF

 

Yes, that is a good idea. Having Aragorn (or anyone, for that matter) trapped in the Mines, afraid that they wouldn't get out, could traumatize anyone. Perhaps you could have a flashback of him as a child, feeling claustrophobic. Glad you like it. You see, I have spent plenty of time on that matter, but I have yet to discover Aragorn's reason for going there in the first place. Though I don't think I'll have to draw on some flashbacks from childhood experiences. I know from personal experience that you don't need those to feel claustrophobic at the mere thought of a cave ;-) But I forgot something in my list: Lack of light. For my claustrophobic self the sheer thought of being trapped in a cave without the means to get some light are pure horror! And I'd imagine Aragorn as being much braver than I am ... fliewatuet

 

So assuming my life gets less busy and I can actually write something creative again, that's where I'll be taking this sucker. I thought muses came to life when you're really busy and don't particularly have time for them to do so... So what's the possible timeline here? Moria was deserted (at least by the dwarves) in 2799 after the Battle of Nanduhirion (was that the battle where Thorin earned the name 'Oakenshield'?) and Balin re-colonised Moria in 2989, which lasted a grand total of 5 years. Evidence points towards Moria being unoccupied in the intervening time period. I think it would have been unlikely - although maybe not impossible – that Estel would have entered Moria. 2957-2980: Aragorn undertakes his greatest journeys and errantries. As Thorongil serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor. What were those greatest journeys? I always assumed that he was in Rohan and then Gondor, and then wandered east into Mordor, Harad and beyond, before running back to Arwen in 2980. Is it possible he went through Moria during that period? Maybe, for some reason, he decided to go from Lothlórien to Imladris via Moria (hey Daddy, guess what? I’m engaged to your daughter). When did the High Pass become full of Orcs? Except there’s also the Gap of Rohan. Okay, is it possible that both the High Pass and the Gap were impassable/full of Orcs in 2980? Maybe it was winter and he needed to get back urgently so he went through the mine to avoid getting caught up in the snow and ice, etc. Sorry, thinking aloud here. I have the tiniest glimmering of an idea, but I don’t really know where to start, and I’m not even going to attempt something unless I know it’s plausible.

 

What if Aragorn was passing by the mines, and he saw/felt/all of the day above something that left him mentally scarred? I mean, the Balrog was pretty evil, and I'm sure it struck terror in anyone. Plus, it seems as though when going by/toward Moria, uneasiness followed whoever was there . I mean, I'm not saying it would have to be the Balrog, but I'm sure there were plenty of evil things in or around Moria. CLF

 

I mean, I'm not saying it would have to be the Balrog, but I'm sure there were plenty of evil things in or around Moria. The Balrog itself I think stayed down in Moria. The going theory is that it was reawakened by the recolonisation effort of Balin. That seems feasible to me. if anything of that significance were active around Lorien--as in, outside the cave, as it were--she would most likely have heard of it, and then Elrond would know, and then Gandalf would know, etc. As for evil things in the area, Haldir does note that Lorien is kept safe by is warders: hands more upon the bow than upon the harpstring, and all that. So there were enemies in the area, but it seems more likely that those were the Orcs as they reinfested the Misty Mountains. How to get Aragorn into the mines is the biggest question I can think of. Assume he knows the Mines are not a place you want to go (and I think that's a good assumption, even in his younger days). If that's so, you need something pretty overwhelming to drive him, not just into the mines, but into the vale itself and so ineluctably into the mines, assuming he is basically unwilling to enter Moria given the general knowledge he has of it. Even though Rangers risk their lives, I think this would be billed as not a reasonable risk under most scenarios. Thus either one has to overcome a steep gradient of rationality (in favor of avoiding the mines) or else one has to force him into them unwillingly, probably by physical necessity. Some problems I'd encountered trying to set up the "lesser of great evils" scenario where entering the mines was a matter of physical survival: The Dimrill stair is nearby. It's conceivable he was heading for them to go through the Redhorn Gate (or else descending from them), but in a way, that presents its own problems: he'd need to be driven from them, forced aside, and then additionally hemmed into the vale such that the mines were the only option. For a long while, I thought of natural disasters--a flood, heavy snowstorm, something of that nature. Why? Because if it were a creature of darkness (or a whole horde of them on his heels) chasing them, what's to keep them from following him into the Mines? Orcs have gone there, so why wouldn't wargs or trolls? The only human enemies around are the Dunlendings. But then there's still the problem of them having to head him off from the stairs *and* force him into the valle with no way to escape save to enter the mines. There's also the problem of food--even if his enemies didn't follow him, Aragorn wouldn't know anything about the structure of the mines, and there's no guarantee he'd be able to hack it in the dark on limited supplies. Starvation is a real problem, and a smart enemy would probably hang out for a week or two, hunting at need in groups, and then assume that Aragorn had probably died of hunger or thirst without them having to lift a finger. If he's injured going in, his odds of survival decrease dramatically if his only way out is through the Hollin gate. In terms of other scenarios, I can conceive of him being willing to venture in if others needed rescuing, but who on earth lives in that area that would need rescuing from Moria, of all places? It's possible a fellow Ranger was orc-napped, but would that be sufficient to drive Aragorn into the mines after him? I'm not sure. It might be. So there's one possibility, but then again, the other considerations about supplies and ability to survive in Moria's environment, especially against an enemy who sees it as home turf, come into play. Anyhow, such have been my considerations as I've tried over the past year and a half to work up a writeable scenario.

 

I thought muses came to life when you're really busy and don't particularly have time for them to do so... Do tell ... I should be working right now *sigh*, which means I'll have to work on the weekend. But this turned out to be a persistent little bugger. What were those greatest journeys? I always assumed that he was in Rohan and then Gondor, and then wandered east into Mordor, Harad and beyond, before running back to Arwen in 2980. Is it possible he went through Moria during that period? Maybe, for some reason, he decided to go from Lothlórien to Imladris via Moria (hey Daddy, guess what? I’m engaged to your daughter). When did the High Pass become full of Orcs? Except there’s also the Gap of Rohan. Okay, is it possible that both the High Pass and the Gap were impassable/full of Orcs in 2980? Maybe it was winter and he needed to get back urgently so he went through the mine to avoid getting caught up in the snow and ice, etc. I don't think he went through Moria during the time of his great journeys. It was either before or afterwards. I also don't think that Aragorn went from Lothlórien through Moria. He seemed to have left Lothlórien in Summer ('Then for a season they wandered together [...], until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer [...]' Appendix A, RotK, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen), so blocked passes because of bad weather would not have been the reason. But what if he entered Moria before he came to Lothlórien? Here's a list of arguments that would speak in favour for such a theory: Tolkien says in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: 'It came to pass that [...] he [Aragorn] returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, [...]. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while [...]; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.' Tolkien does not say that he came to the borders of Lórien by the direct route The passage from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen I cited earlier would imply that Aragorn entered Lórien at the beginning of spring. So if he had planned to return to Imladris from his trip to the confines of Mordor via the shorter route (which it is for someone who does not stick to the great roads), he would rather make for the Redhorn Pass than for the High Pass at this time of the year. Some kind of disaster (or whatever event) could have driven him into the mines. And I somehow cannot see that shaken/injured/starved as he must have been when he came out again, he would have been able to continue with his journey immediately. Lórien seems to be the perfect place to recuperate from such an experience ... (and since Aragorn seems to have visited Lórien for the first time at age 49 and I don't see him visiting it again until he came their with the Fellowship, this also fits perfectly with my view of the events) But I have some more ideas on the topic: For some reason, I don't believe Aragorn actually travelled through the Mines, but entered them from the eastern side and left them there as well. He would have had a better knowledge of the way through Moria otherwise, but the Fellowship seems to rely solely on Gandalf for guidance. I think that Aragorn left Moria through the Dimrill Gate but not necessarily entered by the same way. I think Moria had more than just the two entries, even if those entries were nothing more than ventilation shafts or smaller caves that eventually connected with the main system of tunnels. Aragorn could have sought refuge in one of those, might have even barred the way out again in order to keep out possible pursuers (or they barred the way in order to get rid of him), and eventually made his way into the main tunnels of Moria. If he had planned to cross the mountains via the Redhorn Pass, it is also safe to assume that he had enough provisions with him that would sustain him at least for a couple of days. I doubt that he would have wanted to waste time on hunting in the high places of the mountains. That's one possible scenario (though it sure has its flaws). I'll post another in a separate post (after I get some work done ...) fliewatuet

 

For some reason, I don't believe Aragorn actually travelled through the Mines, but entered them from the eastern side and left them there as well. He would have had a better knowledge of the way through Moria otherwise, but the Fellowship seems to rely solely on Gandalf for guidance. This is the impression I get as well. I don't think he ever went all the way through the mines, for the same reasons you have, he just didn't see to offer much guidance when the Fellowship was passing through them. Gandalf seemed to be the only one who knew the way. Cheryl

 

This is the impression I get as well. I don't think he ever went all the way through the mines, for the same reasons you have, he just didn't see to offer much guidance when the Fellowship was passing through them. Gandalf seemed to be the only one who knew the way. Yes, and not only that. Aragorn seems to have little knowledge about the land near the west wall of Moria, as the following snipped of text indicates: `We must reach the doors before sunset,' said Gandalf, 'or I fear we shall not reach them at all. It is not far, but our path may be winding, for here Aragorn cannot guide us; he has seldom walked in this country, and only once have I been under the west wall of Moria, and that was long ago. ...' (FotR, A Journey in the Dark). If Aragorn had entered/left Moria that way, he would be of more use as a guide in this area. fliewatuet (still battling this particular nuzgûl)

 

If Aragorn had entered/left Moria that way, he would be of more use as a guide in this area. fliewatuet (still battling this particular nuzgûl) Oh, very good point. I had forgotten that piece of text. Cheryl *given up fighting this nuzgul and have accepted that I have to write it...*

 

The passage from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen I cited earlier would imply that Aragorn entered Lórien at the beginning of spring. So if he had planned to return to Imladris from his trip to the confines of Mordor via the shorter route Yes, as far as we know he entered Lorien in spring and after "great perils on the confines of Mordor" that he MUST have accomplished in only a vewry few weeks and immediately after he left Gondor and stopped being Thorongil! The famous Corsair raid ALSO took place in 2980 and it MUST have been *before* he went to Mordor and Lorien. January - February: Corsair Raid February - late? March: Mordor great perils late? March - June: Lorien (we know he spent a whole 'season' there before Midsummer between June and July) I don't think this time frame works for him also being lost in Moria. Earlier, before he goes to Gondor, or after he gets betrothed seems more likely to me. Gwynnyd

 

Three reasons Aragorn might have gone into Moria..... 1. He is captured by Orcs, and taken into Moria as a slave, where he either a) frees himself or b) is rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, or Legolas, or Halbarad, or the other hero of your choice. 2. He is in Lorien, and some foolish Elf maiden is captured by Orcs, and he (either alone or with a group of heroes of your choice) rescues her. 3. He goes into Moria during the search for Gollum, and is unnerved by something there, and leaves as soon as possible. Whether after proving that Gollum wasn't there, or before -- (Forget Gollum, I'm getting out of here, NOW!) For myself, I think #3 is the most likely, but I find myself most intrigued by #1. Aragorn-angst is always welcome. Nightsky

 

Trying to answer two post in one. Let's see if I manage ... Gwynnyd: Do we know for sure that the Corsair Raid happened in 2980? (I can't find the passage at the moment). I know that Aragorn left Ecthelion's service before returning from that raid, but coudn't it have happened in 2979? Otherwise I agree that Aragorn's schedule after leaving Ecthelion's service is rather tight. In fact it is so tight that I can hardly imagine him getting to see anything interesting on the confines of Mordor ... Nightsky: I am a bit wary of the 'Aragorn captured by Orcs and held as a slave' theme. I've probably read too many stories dealing with it. And I am not sure whether there were that many Orcs in and around Moria during the time slots where Aragorn could have gone there. Even before the Fellowship head for Moria, Gandalf says: 'But I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again. If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.' (FotR, A Journey in the Dark) The Battle of Five Armies took place in 2941. Aragorn left Rivendell and the safety of Elrond's home in 2951. He went on his great journeys in 2957. During those journeys he served both Rohan and Gondor, and returned via Lóthlorien to the North after he left Gondor's service. If we assume that he travelled to Moria before going to Rohan (which would not necessarily happen in 2957, but not too long afterwards), then there would be few Orcs in the Misty Mountains. If Gandalf assumes that the aftereffect of the Battle of Five Armies keeps the numbers of Orcs low even in 3018, than there would not be any large Orc-colonies to be found in the Misty Mountains in 2950-something. There might be more Orcs around after Aragorn's betrothal in 2980 but still no large colonies. Otherwise Gandalf would not be so confident about making it through Moria without running into Orcs almost 40 years later. In 2989 Moria was resettled by the Dwarves until it was lost 5 years later. If Moria was infested by Orcs before that time, I doubt that Balin and company would have managed to settle there and live there for five years. After Balin and co perished, I have no doubts that there were Orcs to be found there, but I doubt that Aragorn travelled to Moria after 2989. Had he been there during the settlement of the Dwarves, he would have met them (he mentions the Dimrill Gate; even if the Dwarves did not inhabit every nook and cranny of Moria, they would have been around the Dimrill Gate and Aragorn would have met them). Then he would have said so during the Council of Elrond when Glóin whined about not having had word from Balin for about 30 years. Had Aragorn entered Moria after the Dwarves were killed, he would have come upon at least some of their corpses (again, they would have been found around the Dimrill Gate), and also would have said something at the Council of Elrond. I agree that Aragorn's search for Gollum would be a most reasonable excuse to enter Moria, but Gandalf and Aragorn started that search only in 3001 ... As for rescuing some Elf-maiden: I think that Aragorn visited Lórien twice: In 2980, when he met Arwen, and during the stay with the Fellowship. Even after he captured Gollum and brought him North into the Wood-elves' keeping did he only travel 'through the eves of Lórien' (according to the Unfinished Tales). Lórien was too withdrawn from the rest of the world for Aragorn to go there for the occasional visit. I also don't think that someone came to Aragorn's rescue (whatever that Moria-desaster turned out to be). Aragorn seemed to travel alone for most of the time (The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, RotK, Appendix A says: 'With him [Gandalf] he [Aragorn] made many perilous journeys, but as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, [...]') and I doubt that many knew exactly where he went and when he would come back. But I do have an idea that might work. But I'll post that separately as this post has grown rather long ... fliewatuet (now off to post something in the hope that others may tear it apart )

 

Since I have given up any attempt of getting more work done today, I may well deal with this nuzgûl in a more constructive way. Here's what I think might work (feel free to correct me ... otherwise I'll end up having to write that bugger ) In 2951 Dol Guldur is reoccupied by three Nazgûl. This might lead to two things: First, the presence of the Nazgûl would attract other evil creatures. Those beasties would not necessarily crawl around in the Misty Mountains or in Moria but would lurk in southern Mirkwood and around the Anduin. Second, the presence of Sauron's forces in that area would upset Saruman. Saruman is still after the Ring and he knows that Isildur perished in the Gladden Fields. His fear that Sauron might use Dol Guldur as a fortress from which to search for the Ring lead to Saruman agreeing to an attack on Dol Guldur 10 years earlier. So he might renew his search for the Ring, send a couple of minions to the Gladden Fields or venture there himself. My point is that in the years following 2951 the vale of the Anduin around the Gladden Fields and around southern Mirkwood would be crawling with strange folk Enter the Rangers: I thought that a reasonable excuse for having a still rather young and green Aragorn on the east side of the Misty Mountains together with a group of Rangers would be the need to negotiate with the Beornings about who would take care that the High Pass remains open (given the increase in evil minions). As chieftain he would have to get to know their allies and the allies would have to get to know him. Once on the east side of the Misty Mountains they could head south, trying to investigate some rumour about more evil minions crawling about. Once finished with that business they make for the Redhorn Pass. The most reasonable excuse for that could be approaching winter and the fact that the Redhorn Pass lies further to the south than the High Pass. As they approach the Dimrill Stair either foul weather or foul company drive them to seek refuge in a cavern that turns out to be connected to Moria. I have not yet figured out what happens in Moria, only that Aragorn would be quite shaken if he were the only survivor and if he made it out in the knowledge that every single one of his companions died so that he would survive. Of course one could add various degrees of nastyness, especially with respect to what they would eat once they ran out of supplies ... but I intend on keeping this post suitable for a general audience fliewatuet

 

Gwynnyd: Do we know for sure that the Corsair Raid happened in 2980? (I can't find the passage at the moment). I know that Aragorn left Ecthelion's service before returning from that raid, but coudn't it have happened in 2979? Otherwise I agree that Aragorn's schedule after leaving Ecthelion's service is rather tight. In fact it is so tight that I can hardly imagine him getting to see anything interesting on the confines of Mordor ... Yes, unfortunately, we do. This date is conjectural but fairly firm. destroys Corsair fleet 48/49 2980 which is nowhere actually listed in the Tale of Years but can be set pretty firmly into the date from subtracting the four years from this quote in Appendix A "The Stewards" "There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father." from the date in this quote in Appendix A "The Stewards" 'When Denethor became Steward (2984) he proved a masterful lord, holding the rule of all things in his own hand. I put 48/49 as Aragonr's agebecause it *must* have been very early in the year 2980 when Aragorn destroyed the Corsair fleet and probably before his March 1st, 49th birthday. It depends on how long you think it took him to experience the 'perils' on the border of Morder. From Appendix A "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" 'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again" It can't have been longer than 8 weeks or so after his birthday when Aragorn went to Lothlorien and Arwen fell in love with him. It is certainly already spring because the mallorn trees are in flower. From Appendix A "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" "And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed." Legolas describes the mallorn trees early in the "Lothlorien" chapter: "There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the bark of the trees is smooth and grey." When the Fellowship arrived in Lorien around January 16th, the same trees are described as LotR, FotR "Lothlorien" "the inner were mallorn-trees of great height, still arrayed in pale gold." The next two to three months he spends with Arwen, because it was a whole *season* before midsummer eve when they plighted their troth. From Appendix A "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad. It looks like before mid-summer in 2980 Aragorn destroyed the Corsair fleet, had 'perils' on the border of Morder, and spent a 'season' with Arwen. Busy man! Sticking Moria in there seems like too much to me. Gwynnyd

 

Thanks for the elaborate answer . I knew I've read somewhere that the Corsair Raid must have happened in 2980, but due to Aragorn's busy schedule, I have trouble 'accepting' (and therefore remembering) the date Thanks, fliewatuet (still battling with that particular nuzgûl)

 

I knew I've read somewhere that the Corsair Raid must have happened in 2980, but due to Aragorn's busy schedule, I think JRRT was fixated on 2980 and didn't really realize just how much he had Aragorn doing in the first part of that year. We know so little about what Aragorn did during his 64 wandering years, it just makes me crazy that four (Corsair Raid, leaves Gondor, one set of perils at Mordor, and betrothal with Arwen) of the eight known events (add serves in Rohan, goes where 'stars are strange', travels with Gandalf, and goes to Moria to the previous list) all take place in the same six month period. Unfortunately, if we want to be strictly canonical, we seem to be stuck with this chronology. There is nothing that requires us to be strictly canonical, of course. Gwynnyd

 

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