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Discussing: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

I need two titles, for a book and a text, supposedly from Rivendell but copied and residing in the Library of Minas Tirith early in the Fourth Age. One would be 'Maladies of the Spirit', a book containing the knowledge of Elrond concerning the healing of troubled minds, from headaches to madness. The other would be 'The Works of Eregion', a history of the works of Celebrimbor and the Mirdain of Eregion. If these titles don't work in Sindarin, I'd need the closest approximation. Any help would be appreciated. Oh - I also would like, and will probably use (depending on how the words sound/look), the Sindarin translation of/term for: The Stone of Renewal, and The Stone of Silence. Thanx much for your time. RAKSHA THE DEMON

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Some possibilities: 'Maladies of the Spirit' Lhîw e-Faer Sickness of the Spirit 'The Works of Eregion', Curu Eregion Craft of Eregion [_curu_ = craft, skill] The Stone of Renewal & The Stone of Silence What kind of stone do these titles refer to? Here are three possible terms for ‘stone’: 1. Gond – great stone 2. Gondrafn – hewn stone 3. Sarn – small stone You may substitute the most appropriate term for ‘stone’ in each phrase: The Stone of Renewal 1. Gond en-Eden [_eden_ = new, begun again] The Stone of Silence 3. Sarn e-Dín [_dín_ = silence] Ithildin *(

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Woo-HOOOO! This is exactly what I need. The 'Stone of Renewal' is a name I'm giving to Aragorn's Elfstone; and the other stone is just a little smaller; so both stones aren't huge. I'd call them gems or jewels, but Tolkien always seems to refer to the Elfstone as a stone. Do you think the word 'Sarn' would be more appropriate than 'Gond' in both cases? Thanx so much, Ithildin! RAKSHA THE HAPPY DEMON

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

The 'Stone of Renewal' is a name I'm giving to Aragorn's Elfstone; and the other stone is just a little smaller; so both stones aren't huge. I'd call them gems or jewels, but Tolkien always seems to refer to the Elfstone as a stone. Do you think the word 'Sarn' would be more appropriate than 'Gond' in both cases? Raksha, Without a doubt! Sarn is more approproprate. Elessar = Elf Stone

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Tolkien gave the Sindarin name of _Edhelharn_ and I would reccommend primarily using that if you are talking about the Elfstone. But _Sarn en-Eden_ could possibly be used as an additional reference - so many things in ME had multiple names. Ithildin *(

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Akk! Where did he call the Elfstone "Edhelharn"? I've read the various versions of the Elfstone's origins in UNFINISHED TALES, but for the purpose of the story I'm co-writing, I need the Elfstone to have been made by Celebrimbor. And of course there will be an 'author's note' explaining that the Stone of Renewal title for the Elfstone is of my own invention, and don't come from the books. (and that the Stone of Silence is entirely mine and my co-author's) RAKSHA

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

I believe the term _Edhelharn_ was used in the King's Letter whcih appeard in the HoME volume entitled "Sauron Defeated." It is the Sindarin translation of _Elessar_ which is Quenya for "Elfstone." Celebrimor would have known both elvish languages and Sindarin would have been his everyday tongue so I see no conflict there. The piece would probably have been referred to by both terms interchangeably, so using an additional (and more prophetic) third name for it would not seem out of line to me. Ithildin *(

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the symantics of the translations put forth. In the Sindarin that I've studied, there isn't so much an independent word for "of." Rather, it uses a form following that which is seen in the terms "Elf-stone" or "Elf-friend." These could also be translated to "Stone of an Elf" or "Friend of an Elf." Here, I say "an Elf" because I don't see the Sindarin word "in" in either of them, which is the modifier that would make it refer to all the Elves in existance, IE "Friend of the Elves" would be "Mellon-in-Edhil" while "Friend of an Elf" would be "Mellon-Edhel" and "Friend of some Elves" would be "Mellon-Edhil." To make matters worse, "Friends of an Elf" would be "Mellyn-Edhel" and "Friends of the Elves" would be "Mellyn-in-Edhil." But I digress. In any case, I'd say the term would come out closer in form to that. Using the "head left" symantics of Sindarin, I'd say "Stone of Renewal" would more likely come out as "Sarn-Eden" and "Stone of Silence" come out as "Sarn-Dín." That being said, Ithildin's translation for "Works of Eregion" is spot-on if you're not talking about *all* the works of Eregion, but some of them. That being said, there's morphology issues with "Curu" being used as a noun. If we're talking about more than one work, when it becomes plural, it undergoes a conjugation that would change it to "cyry." (It's not as silly sounding as the y's make it look. See Appendix E in RoTK, the section on Vowels, for how y's are pronounced.) So "Works of Eregion" would come out as "Cyry-Eregion." And I would translate "Sickness of the Spirit" as "Lhíw-Faer." But, whatever you end up using, the best thing you could do is be consistant in form. BTW, Raksha, as a sidebar, that's a nifty story you and Clairon have got going, there. I've been following it on FFN since the first of the trilogy and I'm totally hooked on finding out what happens to Faramir. Poor guy just can't get a break. ^_^ Berz.

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Hello Berz, Well, admittedly my translations are not perfect, but I never claimed to be an expert and I just try to learn by doing. I welcome discussion on my efforts because that always helps me think things though and see things from different angles. There are many different theories out there and Tolkien never finished tweaking his languages, so it is hard to say at times just precisely what is ‘correct.’ I will try to explain my reasons for choosing the forms I used. In the Sindarin that I've studied, there isn't so much an independent word for "of." Rather, it uses a form following that which is seen in the terms "Elf-stone" or "Elf-friend." True, but the genitival article _en_ is usually translated ‘of the’ and is used in genitival constructions if the second word of the construction is a common noun – as in _Haudh-en-Elleth_ ‘Mound of the Elf-maid”. (Source: “Sindarin - the Noble Tongue,” by HKF, Ardalambion) So, in my understanding, _Sarn-en-Eden_ would more literally be translated ‘The Stone of the Renewal,’ which I considered to still carry the meaning requested by Raksha. Perhaps ‘Renewal’ and ‘Silence’ are proper nouns here? I guess Tolkien’s few examples leave me a bit confused on where to draw the line. In the case of proper nouns, using word order alone to express the genitival relationship is possible, as in _Aran Moria_ ‘Lord (of) Moria’ or _Ennyn Durin_ ‘Doors of Durin’. So, then, _Sarn Dín_ and _Sarn Eden_ would be correct. I do like the sound of these constructions better. I guess I was just going by the old adage, ‘better safe than sorry.’ The genitival article is not always required but my experience has been that including the article seems to make the translation more secure. And you are right, too, in that using the hyphens with the articles can also be helpful to alert the reader to a genitival construction, though Tolkien himself was inconsistent about using them. _Lhîw e-Faer_ could also probably be constructed either way and be correct. Somehow I still like using the article here, and, AFAIK, it would be translated as ‘Sickness of the Spirit.’ Rather, it uses a form following that which is seen in the terms "Elf-stone" or "Elf-friend." These could also be translated to "Stone of an Elf" or "Friend of an Elf." Here, I say "an Elf" because I don't see the Sindarin word "in" in either of them, … _Edhelharn_ and _Elvellon_ are compound words and I believe the relationship is closer in compounds. Articles are not usually included in the compound formation and I am under the impressions that most compounds are usually translated without any ‘of’ or ‘of the’ components. …IE "Friend of the Elves" would be "Mellon-in-Edhil" while "Friend of an Elf" would be "Mellon-Edhel" and "Friend of some Elves" would be "Mellon-Edhil." To make matters worse, "Friends of an Elf" would be "Mellyn-Edhel" and "Friends of the Elves" would be "Mellyn-in-Edhil." Yes, and “Friend of the Elf” would be _Mellon-en-Edhel_ using the singular form of the genitival article. But, again, compounds and genitival constructions in sentences are slightly different – at least to my understanding. That being said, Ithildin's translation for "Works of Eregion" is spot-on if you're not talking about *all* the works of Eregion, but some of them. That being said, there's morphology issues with "Curu" being used as a noun. If we're talking about more than one work, when it becomes plural, it undergoes a conjugation that would change it to "cyry." True, ‘works’ would be plural. However, I substituted _curu_ (glossed as ‘craft/skill’) for ‘works’ and ‘Craft’, as in ‘the whole of the craft’ would be singular, would it not? I hope you will come back and help with the translation requests here; I always welcome additional opinions on these topics! Ithildin *(

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Hi, Berz! Thanx for your compliments to Milady Clairon and I for HOME TO HEAL. Glad you're enjoying it, because it's gonna go on for awhile; I'm betting to 27 chapters at least (Clairon's rough-drafted through 25, I'm still slogging away on tweaking ch. 8-9). Oh dear, I have no idea who is right between you and Ithildin. Both interpretations sound plausible to me. For now, since I already went with Ithildin's translations in ch. 7, we'll probably stick with them. If Arwen or her brothers start complaining about Faramir's reading of one of those Rivendell Texts, he can always say he's been listening to Legolas' Mirkwood dialect for too long. Or something. But stick around. Eventually I'm gonna need Quenya cusswords, which will be interesting, since I don't know if they cuss in Valinor, where the language came from (at least I think so...) RAKSHA

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Ithildin, if you think it's Sarn Din and Sarn Eden, I could always have Aragorn correct Faramir's words later; since Aragorn would have a much better command of Elvish Sindarin (as opposed to the Sindarin spoken in Gondor)...T;hanx again for your help. I think it highly likely that I'll be asking again for more, later... RAKSHA, in awe of the translators on this board

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Ithildin, I officially love you! An intellegent conversation about Sindarin! At last! I've been trying to have them for so long and they always degenerate into "but this is what the Grey Company said..." From the bottom of my heart, thank you! You said: "the genitival article _en_ is usually translated ‘of the’ and is used in genitival constructions if the second word of the construction is a common noun – as in _Haudh-en-Elleth_ ‘Mound of the Elf-maid”." This is true. But one thing you have to consider is the example itself. "Haudh-en-Elleth" is from Silmarillion (please correct me if I'm wrong!) which was written before The Hobbit or the trilogy. An argumen could be made that Tolkien was still tweaking the language at that point. Not only that, but it would also have been an older form of Sindarin. If I'm remembering my geography correctly, Haudh-en-Elleth was near Doriath putting that name in the Doriathrin dialect of Sindarin. In the universe itself, I suppose the difference could be chalked up to that, but I think the external history of it was that Tolkien was still tweaking. That being said, the little chart-let I have about the evolution of the Elvish languages does show the Lothlorien, Mirkwood, and Edhellond dialects coming out of the Doriathrin dialect. It's entirely possible to use that reason in the story. ^_^ You said: "True, ‘works’ would be plural. However, I substituted _curu_ (glossed as ‘craft/skill’) for ‘works’ and ‘Craft’, as in ‘the whole of the craft’ would be singular, would it not?" True that, but the impression I got from the title was more of "these are some of the things that have been done in Eregion" meaning more than one project. Chalk that up to the interpretation of the English, I guess. ^_^; Raksha, I'd love to be able to help with Quenya. Unfortunately, I don't know any Quenya. My knowledge is limited to Sindarin for the moment. I guess you could say I'm tackling the one before I move on to another. I'll give you the one piece of information/advice that I have, though; be careful about context of its use. Quenya really wasn't used in M-e all that much because of the Edict of Thingol during the First Age. When he found out about the Kin-slaying at Alqualondë, Thingol disallowed its use by his people and it fell out of general use in the Elven realms in Beleriand. We see it in the trilogy, yes, but mainly from Galadriel who is the last of the Noldor in M-e. It's her native language, so of course she'll still use it from time to time. But most Elves left hanging around in the Fourth Age probably aren't going to use it too much. Anyhow, have to cut this mini-rant off. Real-life is intruding. ^_~ Berz.

 

 

Re: Need two Sindarin book titles and Sindarin terms

Berz, I do enjoy discussing Sindarin, it is an interesting language! And I once saw someone’s signature line that read “Go not to the Grey Company for counsel, for they will say both ‘no’ and ‘sheep.’” Only too true… ;) As to the external/internal history of the Silmarillion – I know many of the stories did exist in some form before Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and LOTR, however, I think most of the ‘final’ drafts that Christopher worked from were more recent. I’m not positive about that though. And, of course, Tolkien was, indeed, still tweaking the languages so we often have differing forms with no explanations as to why they were used. Many of the examples using the genitival article come from texts published in Unfinished Tales. It would take a good bit of research to correlate them time-wise to LOTR, but in all of the authoritative articles I have studied, there has never been any suggestion that _en_ was an ‘outdated’ convention to Third Age Sindarin. Also, in LOTR we have Frodo and Sam being called _Conin en Annûn_ ‘princes of the West.’ So I think using this article is considered proper throughout all stages of mature Sindarin. Ithildin *(

 

 

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