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Discussing: Elvish help....

Elvish help....

I have read the Sil three times and Unfinished Tales and some of HoMe... but still feel unsure as to certain terms and such.

Anyone who'd like to read the tale and respond with helpful suggestions would be most appreciated.

Blessings,
Agape

 

 

Re: Elvish help....

I'd love to read along and try to help out by answering questions or making comments. Languages are not my speciality, but I know the canon and how to find the answers on language questions usually.

 

 

Re: Elvish help....

Thanks, oshun! BTW - just re-read your Maitimo and Findekano tale... I love that one... sad, but why am I not surprised!!! Elves should begin with 's' for sad....

One of the things that drives me nuts is the name of the sun and moon... I usually use Anor and Ithil... but I was reading an Elvish tale the other day, can't remember which, and the author used a different name for the sun.

Now - maybe the name was the Maia that traveled with the sun... but I don't know...

Is Anor and Ithil a Gondorian word, i.e., Minas Anor, Minas Ithil.... or is it Sindarin? I always thought it was Sindarin - so if I'm writing Celeborn and he comes from where Quenya was forbidden - then he'd be speaking Sindarin, I think....

One of the many ???? that drive me nuts!

Blessings and thanks for any help you or anyone else can give.

 

 

Re: Elvish help....

Moon
Isil meaning the Sheen, a name given to it by the Vanyar;
Ithil is the Sindarin name Moon in Sindarin;
Rána (Quenya), the Wayward, name given it by the exiled Noldor.

Sun
Anar or Fire-golden is the name given to it by the Vanyar;
Anor is the Sindarin name;
Vása (Quenya) meaning Heart of Fire, name given it by the exiled Noldor
Naira (Quenya) don't know the context in which this one would be used or who would use it. My advice is not to use it.

Tilion guided the Moon and Arien guided the Sun - both of the Maiar.

Celeborn being of the Sindar, kinsman of Elu Thingol would speak Sindarin, nothing to do with banning of Quenya.

Virtually all place names in Gondor are in Sindarin. A common fanon/misconception is that Sindarin was somewhat uncommon or only used by scholars among Men in Gondor.

In addition to Appendix F, of Lord of the Rings, I rely heavily on linguist David Salo (the guy who did the language coaching and translation for dialogue and lyrics for Peter Jackson) in his scholarly Gateway to Sindarin, A Grammar of an Elvish Language from J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (University of Utah Press), "History of Sindarin" chapter. He says: "The Noble families of Gondor usually used some Sindarin, but only a few [emphasis mine-so a few did use it; my next question was who were they?] used it as a daily speech."

David Salo goes on to note that native Sindarin speakers in Gondor were largely limited to Minas Tirith and the surrounding area, the Dúnedain of the North and Dol Amroth. He further notes that the area where Sindarin was most persistently used among Men and was used as a first language by the general population was in Dol Amroth. He references Peoples of Middle Earth, Return of the King, and Unfinished Tales, Tolkien's letters and discussions of other linguists. I also found backup references in Tolkien's letters.

After the Downfall of Numenor, the surviving Númenoreans/Elf-friends who set up their realms in exile of Arnor and Gondor spoke Sindarin, not Adûnaic (in reaction to the rebels against the Elves and followers of Sauron there, et al.). Peoples of Middle Earth states: "The Faithful [after the Downfall]...used Sindarin, and in that tongue devised all names of places that they gave anew in Middle-earth. Adûnaic was abandoned to unheeded change and corruption as the language of daily life, and the only tongue of the unlettered. All men of high lineage and all those who were taught to read and write used Sindarin, even as a daily tongue among themselves. In some families, it is said, Sindarin became the native tongue, and the vulgar tongue of Adûnaic was only learned casually as it was needed." In accordance with this, Sindarin is stated to have been "the normal spoken language of Elendil's people" (Unfinished Tales).

Also double-checked these interpretations in Helge K. Fauskanger's Sindarin the Noble Tongue.

Sindarin was NOT simply a scholarly tongue among the elite of Gondor, but one used in daily life through the Third Age, and was the first language of all people in Dol Amroth, not just the elite and high Numenorean types.

 

 

Re: Elvish help....

Oh, I am so rude. I babble on and on about languages (more than you ever wanted to know), and forgot to thank you for mentioning my story, Maitimo and Findekáno it is very dear to my heart. My first story based on The Silmarillion (which got me hooked). Thanks for reading (again) and so happy you enjoyed it.

Hugs--

Oshun

 

 

Re: Elvish help....

Thanks bunches for the help.... so many things get so complicated... even with a wealth of knowledge, things have a tendency to be lost in the thousands and thousands of words that Tolkien wrote. I've copied and pasted this onto the tale so I can use it for future reference.

The thing about Sindarin for Gondor is most appreciated as I have always felt that the Steward and his sons were fluent in it, but also IMHO in Quenya. After all, they were descendants of the 'Faithful.'

As for M&F - first Sil one, huh? Shees! Very, very good!

 

 

Re: Elvish help....

Thanks bunches for the help.... so many things get so complicated... even with a wealth of knowledge, things have a tendency to be lost in the thousands and thousands of words that Tolkien wrote. I've copied and pasted this onto the tale so I can use it for future reference.

You're welcome. Anytime. Tell me about the volumes! I do keep all my research notes, but not as well organized as I would wish.

Steward and his sons were fluent in it, but also IMHO in Quenya. After all, they were descendants of the 'Faithful.'

I was kicking in an open door on that one I guess! Extension of my pet peeve is Faramir knew the languages because he was a hopeless geek and Boromir was just a poor, dumb jock! Yeah, like Denethor wouldn't educate his heir? (Is it showing that I am far too indiscrimnate in my reading? Only solution is good writers have to write more faster, since I am an addict.)

 

 

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