Henneth Annûn Story Archive

Resources is looking for your travel time questions! Sulriel has kindly volunteered to work out horseback travel times, and Blue Iris has volunteered to check distances and terrain. What they need are a list of destinations. You may post destinations and questions in this thread. If anyone volunteers to keep a list of the destinations, that will be gratefully appreciated by your hardworking (ha!) resource admins. I'll start off with asking travel time from the Gap of Rohan to the Angle. The portion from the Gap to the Glanduin would be fairly brisk, but not urgent. From the Glanduin on would be more leisurely, with stops to check out Ranger outposts or patrols. So I'd probably go in between your Max and Min. Lyllyn

 

Wow, thanks for offering this. I'm looking for miles/days from: -- Minas Tirith to Lothlorien (Caras Galadhon, or as close as its practical to bring horses) -- Lothlorien to Edoras Assume a small party of seasoned travelers with good horses. Thanks Melina

 

All thanks go to Sulriel! I think what we will get is destination distances and travel times, and each may have some variants - a minimum time or good rider on a fast horse really pushing things, and a time for those traveling with ordinary horses in a more usual fashion. Is that right Sulriel? Lyllyn

 

About 425 Miles from the Gap of Rohan to the confluence of the Hoarwell and Bruinen. Ride out of the Gap of Rohan and take the Old South Road almost to the Gwathlo (about 250 miles). Turn north by north-east to make the Glanduin river crossing at Ost-in Edhil, then straight on a northerly course to the southmost point of The Angle.(175 Miles over some hills). Other choice is to follow the Old south all the way to Tharbad (325 miles) and then follow the Mitheithel to The Angle (150 miles). Easier travel perhaps, no hills. Might take about the same time.

 

I'd like to know how long it would take to travel on horseback from Minas Tirith to the ruins of Barad-Dur, Fourth Age, no hindrance from wandering Orcs or whatnot, a brisk pace. Also, how long a ride from Minas Tirith to Emyn Arnen, again, Fourth Age, urgent pace, well, maybe Max and Minimum pace. I know that Emyn Arnen isn't very far away from the White City, but is it a half-hour or a few hours? Thanx, Sulriel! Raksha

 

Minas Tirith to Lothlorien: (675 Miles) Great West Road to Edoras- 350 miles on good road Overland from Edoras through West Emnet to the River Entwash - 150 Miles on the plains Cross the Entwash and across The Wold to the River Limlight - 100 Miles over low bleak hills, not hospitable terrain and possibly rocky, somewhat barren. Limlight to River Celebrant - 75 Miles over likely over fields. Drawing fairly close to Caras Galadhon (within 10 miles) Lothlorien to Edoras (325 miles): Work backward from the above sections of the journey.

 

Yes, Thank you Blue Iris. This will be a great thread to keep as a resource. I'll try to post answers here as well as save the info to a database. Remember we need a departure as well as a destination for each entry.

 

Minas Tirith - Barad-Dur 150 miles Crossing the Anduin and through the Morgul Pass Minas Tirith-Emyn Arnen: estimate somewhere between 25-35 miles - river crossing.

 

Thanks, Blue Iris! Sulriel, what would be the rough time course with good horses and very good Dunedain riders? I'd expect them to take the hilly route. lyllyn

 

Gap of Rohan to the Angle 425m 6 days to 17 days Gap of Rohan to Old S. Road to Gwathlo 250m 3-4 days to 7 days Glanduin R crossing Ost-in Edhil to Angle 175m 3 days to 9 days Gap of Rohan to OS Road to Tharbad 325m 5 days to 9 days Mitheithel to Angle 150m 1.5 days to 5 days What I've done is look at the map and try to judge the average miles per day according to the terrain. For example, on the minimum times, I figured aprox 70 mpd on the road but only 50 mpd cross country. on the average times, for a group or someone not in a rush, I figure about 20-30 mpd and add a rest day every 3-4 days. Blue Iris. ! Thanks for digging out the directions and figuring the mileage!! I'm saving these and will see about putting them in a spreadsheet or database for the resouces once we good a good list together.

 

Sulriel, Spread Sheet and Data Base? Should we start issuing Trip-Tiks? Middle EArth Riders Association. Something like the American Automobile Association? If the acronym fits......

 

Minas Tirith to Lothlorien 675 12 days 33 days Great West Road Edoras 350 5-6 days 15 days Overland/W.Emnet Entwash 150 1.5 days 5 days Entwash -> Wold R. Limlight 100 1.5 days 4 days Limlight R. Celebrant 75 1 day 3 days Celebrant Galadhon 10 45 minutes 3 hours the leg times will not always add up to match the total time because on the longer trips, you will still need to add a rest day, or change horses if one is available along the way. you will have to check the map to see if you are near a place where you could exchange for another good horse.

 

Middle-earth Anonymous Riders Association or ?? .. hmmm... we need a word that starts with A that has something to do with distance.

 

Sulriel, what would be the rough time course with good horses and very good Dunedain riders? I'd expect them to take the hilly route. Lyllyn, I'm sorry, I'm not sure which distance this question goes with, but for a group like this, I would use the minimum times, and you could probably shave a little if you had a good reason to push them. I wouldn't expect these guys to take a rest day unless they were on the trail more than a couple of weeks, or expected a fight at their destination.

 

Middle-earth Adventure Riders Association

 

Likely available hostelries/rest stops along Great West Road in Anorien and in Eastfold before Edoras. Horse exchange in Edoras could be possibility. Something possible for rest in West Emnet (farmstead lodging?). Wold and onward to Lothlorien mostly on ones own. Minas Tirith to Lothlorien 675 12 days 33 days Great West Road Edoras 350 5-6 days 15 days Overland/W.Emnet Entwash 150 1.5 days 5 days Entwash -> Wold R. Limlight 100 1.5 days 4 days Limlight R. Celebrant 75 1 day 3 days Celebrant Galadhon 10 45 minutes 3 hours the leg times will not always add up to match the total time because on the longer trips, you will still need to add a rest day, or change horses if one is available along the way. you will have to check the map to see if you are near a place where you could exchange for another good horse.

 

for a group like this, I would use the minimum times Great, thanks! It was the Gap of Rohan to the Angle route, which you already posted. Lyllyn

 

Posted By: Blue Iris Message: Middle-earth Adventure Riders Association Perfect! now we just need some criteria, goals and sew-on patches! (makes me want to buy a t-shirt) I joined MeARA and all I got was this lousy t-shirt ~ Middle-earth Adventure Riders Association ~ we need a motto. ...

 

Minas Tirith Barad-Dur 150 miles 1.5 days 5 days Minas Tirith Emyn Arnen 30miles 2 hours 1 day I think these are the last two for now, let me know if I have missed any.

 

Ohh! This thread is a great idea!! I just happen to have a distance/time question. Elven King's Hall -> Rivendell (Era: Third Age. Complications?: Maybe...I'm still toying with an orc incident....) Thanks! Cheryl

 

Thranduil's Caverns to Laketown - 50 miles. edge of Mirkwood Follow river Celeduin to Old Forest road - 75 miles. edge of mirkwood Old Forest Road West through Mirkwood - 200 miles (spiders and nasties) Edge of Mirkwood to River Anduin - 25 miles - cross at Old Ford - terrain likely flat - still on Old Forest Road Old Ford to Misty Mountains - 50 miles - typical up-slope land form- still on Old Forest Road. Tuun North to take High Pass across mountains - 12 Miles - foothills overland or unfinished road/path Start of High Pass over Misty Mountains to Rivendell: 75 - 150 Miles depending on necesary mountain switchbacks, up-down, necessary detour around obstacle. Mountain terrain and all attendant difficulties. I would go with the higher number for reality sake.

 

Thanks Blue Iris. Here are some I was sent privately, if you want to work out directions and distances for these, I should be able to catch up with posting the times later this afternoon. Minas Tirith to Henneth Annun, both via Cair Andros, and through Ithilien, crossing over the Anduin at Osgiliath. Minas Tirith to Pelargir Pelargir to Dol Amroth by land. Minas Tirith to Edoras Edoras to Isengard Minas Tirith to Edoras Edoras to Isengard

 

This is a terrific resource – many thanks to Sulriel and Blue Iris for volunteering for this. Particular thanks for Minas Tirith to Emyn Arnen (which solves a lot of the question of how Faramir can be Steward of Gondor and dwell in Emyn Arnen). Further to the above post, I would find the following useful – I think some of this may appear as part of the break down of those journeys: Emyn Arnen to the Crossroads in Ithilien the Crossroads in Ithilien to the northern border of Ithilien (where the road turns to head towards the Black Gate, I guess) the Crossroads in Ithilien to the Crossings of Poros Minas Tirith to Cair Andros (I think this will be part of one of the Henneth Annun routes – and I know I have seen this asked for before at HASA) Minas Tirith to Dol Amroth directly (ie not via Pelargir) Also, while we’re on the topic of travel times, I don’t suppose anyone could come up with journey times for water traffic on the Anduin and around the bay of Belfalas (cargo barges and passenger craft)? Cheers, Liz

 

Also, while we’re on the topic of travel times, I don’t suppose anyone could come up with journey times for water traffic on the Anduin and around the bay of Belfalas (cargo barges and passenger craft)? In response to previous questions Mike Kellner was kind enough to post in the 'Ships...' research question thread: "An amazing fact. The maximum speed of a conventional sailboat (in Knots) will be aproximately the square root of its waterline in feet. 9/10ths that speed is more likely what you will really get. 1 knot is about 1.15 mph or 1.85 Kmh. If it is a cross wind or a trailing wind, the boat will be able to sail in a straight line. A headwind will require the boat to tack,(Zig zag into the wind.) which will increase the distance by about 30%." Of course I don't know what the speed of the Anduin would be, nor how slow a cargo barge would be. Lyllyn

 

Thanks Blue Iris! Cheryl *trotting off to create havoc for the Mirkwood elves travelling to Rivendell...*

 

About 60 Miles from MT to HA on either route. Pre-RW, I would choose the Cair Andros route for safety sake unless I was a ranger on patrol. For supply and messenger-definitely the Cair Andros route, quicker also as not through forest. Minas Tirith to Pelargir: 140 Miles - direct shot down the South Road. Well travelled merchant route with likely attendaint inns and hostelries. Pelargir to Dol Amroth mostly by Road: 420 miles South Road from Pelargir west to Linhir then North to Ethring: 225 miles Ethring along River Ringlo south to Edhellond: 130 miles Edhellond to Dol Amroth: 65 Miles Pelargir to Dol Amroth Overland: 370 miles Pelargir to Ethring: . 175 miles Ethring along River Ringlo south to Edhellond: 130 miles Edhellond to Dol Amroth: 65 Miles Minas Tirith to Edoras: 350 Miles through Anorien and Eastfold along the Great West Road. Edoras to Isengard: 175 miles - continuation of Great West Road through Westfold.

 

Hi Lyllyn thanks for reposting the information on sailboats. I guess cargo boats, being wider in the beam and with shallower draught and rigged a little differently will be pretty slow. Plus, what's the current like in the Anduin and how hard is the wind blowing and.... urghh, my head is aching! It may be easier to go and find some comparable real-life figures! Cheers, Liz

 

Emyn Arnen to the Crossroads in Ithilien: 50 Miles the Crossroads in Ithilien to the northern border of Ithilien (where the road turns to head towards the Black Gate, I guess) : 135 miles the Crossroads in Ithilien to the Crossings of Poros: 185 miles Minas Tirith to Cair Andros (I think this will be part of one of the Henneth Annun routes – and I know I have seen this asked for before at HASA): 65 miles Minas Tirith to Dol Amroth directly (ie not via Pelargir): extrapolated from Karen Fonstad's speculation on Imrahil's route when riding to the relief of Minas Tirith 325 Miles. Overland up from Dol Amroth north along River Ringlo turning west south-west to pass between Hills of Tarnos and White Mountains. South through Lebennin fording River Gilrain, River Serni, and River Sirith. At Sirith, north by north-east to South Road crossing at River Erui. South Road to Minas Tirith. Only last 25 miles or so on road. rest of journey overland .

 

Sorry -- I'm going to be a pain -- re Minas Tirith to Lothlorien. For story purposes, I can't have them going via Edoras, or close enough to Edoras that anyone sensible would wonder why they didn't stop there. If they headed north from MT along the river, would that be a practical route, and what would be the mileage/travel times? I really appreciate the help. I was not warned that math would be involved in fanfic. I suck at measuring in the atlas -- my estimates tend to end up hundreds of miles off. Melina, the Math and Atlas-Challenged

 

Melina, All Anduin Route - about 625-650 Miles. Can a horse manage the route? You will have to skirt Emyn Muil and be in Rohan a while along the east wall on East Emnet. Really unavoidable if you are on horseback. You also have the Mouths of the Entwash & Wetwang (Nindalf) possibly marshy? rough on horses. You would have no way stations or hostelries for changing off mounts.

 

I really appreciate the help. I was not warned that math would be involved in fanfic. I suck at measuring in the atlas -- my estimates tend to end up hundreds of miles off. Melina, the Math and Atlas-Challenged LOL! Join the club! That's why I'm so excited about this research thread/article. My estimate of the route from the Elven King's Halls to Rivendell was WAY off. Cheryl

 

Lots of good questions. It may take me a couple of days to catch up so don't think you've been forgotten. marshes are tough and would be very slow. maybe only one or two miles per hour. I'm looking at my atlas and it shows a great deal of what the key calls 'marsh' - 50 miles on each side of the Anduin from Ered Mithrin past Lorien to the Brown Lands. Can that be correct.? I would be quicker to consider those flood-planes that may be marshy during the wet seasons, but not impassable. ... any thoughts on this? edit: the vegatation map shows it to be 'scattered woodlands'. - the key is similar to the 'marshes' key, but the Dead Marshes are marked differently.

 

I really appreciate the help. I was not warned that math would be involved in fanfic. I suck at measuring in the atlas -- my estimates tend to end up hundreds of miles off. Melina, the Math and Atlas-Challenged LOL! Join the club! That's why I'm so excited about this research thread/article. My estimate of the route from the Elven King's Halls to Rivendell was WAY off. Cheryl This is why you have a transportation logistics professional playing on the forums (me). This is really nothing more than what I was doing a few years back when I did disaster relief transport planning for USAID contracts: Istanbul, Turkey to Fier, Albania or Delhi to Termez, Uzbekistan or Southern Austria to Pristina, Kosovo, my playground is the world. And now it is Middle Earth for a while.

 

Sulriel Let's look at the terrain in segments: Lothloren to Brown Lands/Wold: About 110 Miles of plain or rolling field, past Field of Celebrant. Then one has to somehow cross the Wall of Rohan unless one is going to take the horses over Emyn Muil. Let us assume the wall has a break and is not properly garrisoned and patrolled; otherwise it's toast for our four footed friends in Emyn Muil. Over the Wold: 50 Miles direct southward 150 miles skirting wall Hilly terrain, possible rocky outcroppings, fodder not plentiful or lush Over the Downs: 50 Miles Direct Southward 100 Miles skirting wall Rolling hills - better forage - hope nobody sees you East Emnet: 150 Miles: west, then turning southwest then south to the bottom of the Rauros Plains and decent forage - hope nobody sees you Note that from the time that you cross over the Great Wall of Rohan, the Anduin is on The Other Side, and you will have to find chance streams or ponds for watering the horses as there are no rivers until you reach the Anduin again and Rauros. There is nothing on the maps. Hope there is another ungarrisoned break in the walls at the Rauros. Rauros through the Entwash/Wetwang: 100 Miles Marshy and sodden. End of marshland to Minas Tirith: 100 Miles passing Cair Andros etc.... likely well travelled. Pardon if the numbers do not add up to exactly my previous estimation but it's close enough for government work (grins). Then again if I had my druthers I would go the AU route and charter an MI-26 Helo (capacity of a C-130 with minimal landing space requirements)

 

At the risk of beating this to death BTW, this story is set about a year after the Ring War, so the area would be substantially more secure than it was pre-war, though still not entirely secure. Suppose the route was: -- West from Minas Tirith on the road, past the Firien Wood (into the Eastfold) -- Turn north; ford the Entwash west of the mouths -- Travel through the East Emnet roughly along the east side of the Entwash -- Skirt the borders of Fangorn as you travel north -- Ford the Limlight -- Head due north to Lorien Is that practical, in terms of horses? I think I've avoided the Wall with this route. Would the mileage be roughly the same as the all-Anduin route? Thanks for your patience with this Melina (the helicopter is sounding good)

 

At the risk of beating this to death BTW, this story is set about a year after the Ring War, so the area would be substantially more secure than it was pre-war, though still not entirely secure. Suppose the route was: Melina, Not to worry, just sorry I have not attended to the distances sooner. I have been trying to write the closing chapter of a longfic and it is dragging butt big time. So here we go with our journey: Total about 640 Miles -- West from Minas Tirith on the road, past the Firien Wood (into the Eastfold): 225 miles on the Great West Road - good road and travel conditions with likely a fair amount of traffic between Gondor and Rohan. -- Turn north; ford the Entwash west of the mouths: 30 Miles over good fields -- Travel through the East Emnet (and West Emnet) roughly along the east side of the Entwash: 210 miles over mostly fields, becoming more rolling and possily rocky/hilly as you reach borders of Wold/Fangorn -- Skirt the borders of Fangorn as you travel north: 95 Miles Wold on one sid, forest on the other, no rivers between Entwash and Limlight. -- Ford the Limlight - water the horses there. -- Head due north to Lorien: 80 Miles direct to confluence of Celebrant and Anduin. fields/possibly foresty as you near Lothlorien. Again, no rivers shown between Limlight and edge of Lothlorien. About 7-10 miles from confluence to Caras Galadhon. Is that practical, in terms of horses? I think I've avoided the Wall with this route. Would the mileage be roughly the same as the all-Anduin route? Thanks for your patience with this Melina (the helicopter is sounding good)

 

Thank you so much! Melina

 

Blue Iris, I hate to admit how far behind I am, but I wonder about an alternate route from Thanduil's Halls to Rivendell. I show something that is only labeled 'Path' from the Halls, almost due west, that comes out at the Forest Gate. You would have to go south along the Anduin, then the route would be the same once you hit the Old Forest Road and crossed at The Ford. It would certainly be a more dangerous route, and I'm not sure it would be any faster for the few miles you might save. ...just thought I would toss it out there.

 

Sulriel, You are about even on the distances. Safety considerations would put you on the Old Forest Road route. 542 MILES Thranduil's Caverns to Forest Gate- 200 Miles- west by north west Forest Gate to Anduin: 25 Miles west South along Anduin to Old Ford: 105 miles Old Ford to Misty Mountains - 50 miles Turn North to take High Pass across mountains - 12 Miles - Start of High Pass over Misty Mountains to Rivendell: 150 Miles 562 MILES Thranduil's Caverns to Laketown - 50 miles. edge of Mirkwood Follow river Celeduin to Old Forest road - 75 miles. edge of mirkwood Old Forest Road West through Mirkwood - 200 miles Edge of Mirkwood to River Anduin - 25 miles - cross at Old Ford - Old Ford to Misty Mountains - 50 miles - Turn North to take High Pass across mountains - 12 Miles - Start of High Pass over Misty Mountains to Rivendell: 150 Miles

 

Elven King's Hall Rivendell Thranduil's Caverns Laketown 50 miles 5.5 hrs 2 days from the edge of Mirkwood, thru Long Marshes as the Forest River enters Long Lake. Celeduin Old Forest Road 75 miles 1 day 4 days along the edge of Mirkwood Old Forest Road thru Mirkwood 200 miles 3 days 7.5 days spiders and nasties / on avg tt - 30 mpd; no rest days because of danger Edge of Mirkwood River Anduin 25 miles 2 hrs 1 day cross at Old Ford, terrain likely flat, stay on road Old Ford Misty Mountains 50 miles 4.5 hrs 2 days typical up-slope land form, still on Old Forest Road Turn North to High Pass 12 miles 1 hr 1/2 day foothills overland or unfinished road/path Start of High Pass over Misty Mountains est 125miles 1.5 days 6 days milege estimated for mountain switchbacks, obstcles and attendant difficulties

 

for the few miles you would save, it looks like the only reason to use the Path would be stealth. I'll make a note in the comments.

 

Minas Tirith Henneth Annun 60 miles 5 hrs 2.5 day via Cair Andros (safer route, and quicker) Minas Tirith Henneth Annun 60 miles 7 hrs 3 days through Ithilien, over Anduin at Osgilith / heavily wood

 

Please remember, if you use the information from this thread rather than the article/report/spreadsheet/database thingie.. that these are posted in this order departure destination distance minimum time assuming fit horse and experienced rider average time assuming a group of moderately experienced travelers. so Minas Tirith Henneth Annun 60 miles 5 hrs 2.5 day would be from Minas Tirith to Henneth Annun distance of aproc 60 miles fastest realistic time 5 hrs average time 2.5 days merchant trains would be slower Elves/Mearas, Dunedain could probably shave some off the faster times if they had a reason.

 

Minas Tirith Pelargir 140 1.5 days 6 days direct shot down the South Road. Well travelled merchant route, likely with attendant inns and hostelries

 

Pelargir Dol Amroth 420miles by land / mostly road Pelargir Ethring 225 3 days 8 days South Road from Pelargir west to Linhir then North to Ethring Ethring Edhellond 130 1.5 days 4 days along the river Ringlo south to Edhellond Edhellond Dol Amroth 65 6 hrs 2.5 days

 

Blue Iris. You gave me two routes for Pelargir to Ethring by road through Linhir, the other directly cross-county crossingthe R.Serni and R.Gilrain. What about crossing the Hills of Tarnost? Do we have any information on them? How rugged they might be? I can imagine there might be times someone would want to avoid the narrow pass between Tarnost and Ethring.

 

Minas Tirith Edoras 350 miles 5 days 15 days through Anorien and Eastfold along the Great West Road

 

Minas Tirith Edoras 350 miles 5 days 15 days through Anorien and Eastfold along the Great West Road **for your fic: this 15 days is 12 days of travel @ 30mpd and three days of rest interspersed along the way.

 

Edoras Isengard 175 2 days 8 days Continuation of Great West Road through Westfold. this is faster than the 175 miles from Pelargir to Ethring because it is along a road, not cross-country with two river crossings.

 

Emyn Arnen Crossroads in Ithilien 50 4.5 hrs 2 days road

 

Crossroads in Ithilien N. Bordr Ithilien 135 1 day 3 days where the road turns towards the Black Gate

 

CR in Ithilien Crossings of Poros 185 2 days 8 days

 

Minas Tirith Cair Andros 65 6 hrs 2.5 days

 

Sulriel, There is precious little written about the Hills of Tarnost, but from the maps they appear lower and more rolling than the main of The White Mountains, of which they seem to be an arm. In my mind I am drawing parallel with the Blue Ridge Mountains of my lovely home state of Virginia. Easier to get a horse over these than over the White Mountains, and there does appear on Karen Fonstad's map, to be a valley like pass. So to extrapolate Pelargir to Dol Amroth though mountain pass: Pelargir to Linhir by road: 100 Miles Linhir to Hills of Tarnost overland: 60 Miles Foothills: 10 Miles Hills of Tarnost (pass?) 15 Miles: some up and over mountian trail? Foothills on other side: 10 Miles Foothills to Edhellond: 60 Miles Edhellond to Dol Amroth: as stated before. (OR) Stealth Routh to Dol Amroth Pelargir to Linhir by road: 100 Miles Linhir to Hills of Tarnost overland: 60 Miles Foothills: 10 Miles Hills of Tarnost (pass?) 15 Miles: some up and over mountian trail? Foothills on other side: 10 Miles skirting the Hills of Tarnost: about 140 miles from exit of foothills

 

route-1 Pelargir Ethring / road via Linhir 225 3 days 8 days South Road from Pelargir west to Linhir then North to Ethring route-2 Pelargir Ethring / cross-country 175 2.5 days 9 days cross-country, ford R.Serni, R.Gilrain Ethring Edhellond 130 1.5 days 4 days along the river Ringlo south to Edhellond Edhellond Dol Amroth 65 6 hrs 2.5 route-3 Pelargir linhir 100 1 day 4 days by road Linhir to Hills of Tarnost 60 1 day 2-3 days cross-country east foothills over Tarnost Pass 10 + 15 1/2 day 1 day mountain pass west foothills Edhellond 60 1 day 3 days route-4 (Stealth!) T.Pass skirt W.foothills to D.A. 140 2 days 8 days directly from the pass to Dol Amroth / not via Edhellond Watch your legs! not all routes have all the legs listed. -if they are duplicated, they are not repeated.

 

That is all I have listed. I think I missed some, I'll have to check through it tomorrow, but most of it is up and I'll try to finish catching up tomorrow.

 

for the few miles you would save, it looks like the only reason to use the Path would be stealth. I'll make a note in the comments. I'm glad this was pointed out, in that I had originally planned to use the Path route for my group of elves travelling from Thranduil's Halls to Rivendell. I assume this is because this route through Mirkwood would be more dangerous? Thanks again!!! Cheryl

 

This is a very interesting thread and I appreciate the time and effort put into these detailed answers! I know the posts I am replying to are buried somewhere a ways back in this thread, but I still feel it is pertinent to the topic. It concerns the route between the Elvenking’s Halls and Rivendell. Originally posted by Sulriel: for the few miles you would save, it looks like the only reason to use the Path would be stealth I’m not an expert on travel, but I have a different opinion on this conclusion. The Elf Path was a road made by the Elves (per Thranduil himself in The Hobbit) and the Elves apparently maintained the road as well (Bilbo & Co. found the path kept clear of spider webs). This path led straight to Thranduil’s realm and I would find it hard to believe that the Elves would choose to travel the Old Forest Road through the Woodmen’s territory instead of their own Elf Path. The Old Forest Road was south of the Mountains of Mirkwood and though maintained by the Woodmen, it was in more dangerous territory than the Elf Path. I seem to remember a reference somewhere that it had become very perilous to travel and hardly anyone used it anymore in late TA. But, unfortunately, I can’t find the quote and so I can’t put much confidence in that. But whether or not the Forest Road was passable, I think Elves would have used the Elf Path to travel through the forest. The lands between there and the Ford were maintained by the Beornings and were relatively safe (Many Meetings, FOTR) whereas travel along the Celduin through parts of Mirkwood far from the Woodland Realm would likely have been quite hazardous. Just my two-cents… Thanks again for all your hard work ladies! Ithildin *(

 

Sulriel and Blue Iris - many thanks for answering all my specific questions and also generally for all your hard work in this thread (since I'm sure I'll need some of these other figures some time as well!) Cheers, Liz

 

I’m not an expert on travel, but I have a different opinion on this conclusion. The Elf Path was a road made by the Elves (per Thranduil himself in The Hobbit) and the Elves apparently maintained the road as well I think these are very good points to consider. I need to reread the Hobbit, it has been too long.

 

Uh-oh...I think, Suriel and Blue Iris, that you're going to come to regret letting me ask distances and travel times... Here's my list: 1. The Old Forest to Bree 2. Bree to Rivendell by way of the Great Road, the Last Bridge, and the Trollshaws 3. Rivendell to the delta of the Greyflood 4. Delta of the Greyflood to Minas Tirith by way of the Gap of Rohan, and going along north of the White mountains 5. Minas Tirith to Rivendell going through Gondor toward the coast 6. Rivendell to Fornost going straight across the country and over the Weather Hills Thanks if advance for the help you two! Arquen

 

Hi Arquen are you home or still in the states? I'll add these to the database and figure the hours after Blue Iris has had a chance to map out the routes. BTW, did you save the notes from the trip we worked on taking Arrien to Rivendell. if so, post them here, or send them to me privately if they need to be cleaned up, and I'll add them to the list.

 

I got back to Italy on Tuesday (grumble, grumble, grumble), but I've been working ever since Wenesday, so I'm trying to catch up on everything! Will try to find the notes I have (I just know they're somewhere!) and post them. Arquen

 

OK, let's have a go at these. 1. The Old Forest to Bree: 80 Miles - over Barrow downs 2. Bree to Rivendell by way of the Great Road, the Last Bridge, and the Trollshaws: let us assume you are bypassing the marshes and taking the Great East road around them for the Horses' sake. Bree to last Bridge: 225 Miles by road Last Bridge to Bruinen: 115 Miles by road Bruinen to Imladris: 30 Miles following river (path?) 3. Rivendell to the delta of the Greyflood: 400 Miles to Tharbad following the Bruinen 4. Delta of the Greyflood to Minas Tirith by way of the Gap of Rohan, and going along north of the White mountains Tharbad to Gap of Rohan: 325 Miles on Old South Road to the fords of Isen Fords of Isen to Edoras: 125 Miles on Gret West Road Edoras to Minas Tirith: 350 Miles on Great West Road 5. Minas Tirith to Rivendell going through Gondor toward the coast Please be more specific. Do you want to skirt to coast, bypassing the Ered Nimrais around the Cape of Andrast or do you simply want to go a route West of the mountains and through Gondor, Dunland, etc? 6. Rivendell to Fornost going straight across the country and over the Weather Hills: Leaving from The Last Brige will give you a straight shot overland just skirting the very northern tip of the Weather Hills Imladris to Bruinen: 30 Miles (forest trails) Bruinen to Last Bridge: 115 miles by road Last Bridge Overland to Fornost: 260 miles (plains and rolling downs)

 

. . I've posted an edited draft. the formatting still needs tweaking, but I added notes to address the comments from yesterday. 5/9/04 Travel Times Draft feed back on format appreciated, is it readable, is it understandable and please let me know if you see errors or inconsistancies in the routes or times.

 

I am risking annoying you by posting without reading the whole thread (sorry! online time about to end!) how would pony travel differ? average time by pony from: Brandy Hall to Hobbiton Brandy Hall to Tuckborough Hobbiton to Michel Delving Hobbiton to Tuckborough Tuckborough to Michel Delving Tuckborough to Tookbank Michel Delving to Greenholm (assuming location in Atlas of ME) Greenholm to the Tower Hills Ok, horse travel... The King has two kingdoms, Arnor and Gondor. How long would a message take, assuming relay riders with outposts every 25 miles or so? (or would they be closer?) This would be from Fornost or (cannot spell from memory the city on the shores of Lake Evendim) to Minas Tirith, or vice versa. How long would a group of travellers take, some in coaches (assuming improved roads after Elessar becomes king) and some outriders? Assuming fair travelling weather, dry roads. How far would one day's travel be? Do you think there'd be inns at regular intervals in the new kingdom? How about these legs of the journey? Bree to Edoras Edoras to Amon Din Amon Din to Minas Tirith If I am being obnoxious, I will crawl back under my rock and touch type some more (rocks are dark places, conducive to dreaming...) Lin

 

feed back on format appreciated, is it readable, is it understandable It is readable, it is understandable, and I love the little encapsulated description of the territory you pass through along the way. Not very suitable for travelling hobbits, I fear, save adventurous ones. (and how many of those do you know? I could count their number on the toes of one furry foot) but a lovely start, indeed.

 

how would pony travel differ? that is an excellent point, -but also will depend on what you are calling a pony. the average times would not change much if at all. For Hobbits, you could add 10-15% since they have to stop so often for meals. I imagine Hobbit ponies to be about 13hh-14.1-2hh. You would see more difference of speed between the types than you would between the sizes. I have several horses that are between 13.2hh-14.2hh that the kids and I routinely ride. a sturdy little cart pony (or a carriage or draft type horse) is going to be slower than a saddle pony or saddle horse, but over the longer distances you aren't going to see as much difference in the speed. There was a little arabian who held the World Championship endurance title for eight or ten years (every other year events), and came back even after that to place well. and he was only about 14.1-2. He logged over 10,000 miles in competition over about a 15 year period with a very high percent of wins. edit: updated RL notes www.aerc.org look at horse history RO Grand Sultan - 14.2hh Khalil Khai - 14.1hh WS Karamia 13.1hh (please note these ride times do not include the rest times) we are seeing a race-type horse popular in winning the 100 miles races, some done as fast as seven hours (that is excluding the hold times, total time would be about nine or ten hours), but you can't run like that for two or three hundred miles. in other words, if you needed to go 30 or 50 miles, the bigger horse could probably outrun the little one, but over an extended distance, it levels out. -also consider the bigger horse is carring significantly more body weight (in his own body) maybe 300 or 400 lbs more. ** thank for checking the form. I have it set up now so it will be easy to add to as more destinations come in. I'm glad you like the route descriptions, that is Blue Iris' work. She has put a lot into this.

 

Th table seems pretty clear (i was a bit confused by the alternate Pelargir/DA routes but I'm not looking at a map - I'm sure it would be clear with the map to see the different legs) and I like having the little bits of description as well. It has sparked another question. (If this has been answered further up the thread and I missed it, just hit me with your reins and point me in the right direction.) For the average travelling times, where you say travellers would make 20-30 miles a day, how many hours would they ride eg would they ride for six hours at five miles an hour? or just four hours at 7-8 miles an hour? Or...? Cheers, Liz

 

Th table seems pretty clear (I was a bit confused by the alternate Pelargir/DA routes but I'm not looking at a map - I'm sure it would be clear with the map to see the different legs) and I like having the little bits of description as well. I'll look at that again, I was unsure how to present that since the alt route only replaced that one leg, I didn't really want to repeat the entire directions three times, but I suppose I could if it made it more clear since space isn't a primary concern. For the average travelling times, where you say travelers would make 20-30 miles a day, how many hours would they ride eg would they ride for six hours at five miles an hour? or just four hours at 7-8 miles an hour? Or...? This is a good question and I'll add a comment to the heading. Sitting on a walking horse for hours and hours at a time is agonizing. It is much easier to trot and canter 25 or 50 miles than to walk/jog 15. -for the horse as well as the rider (speaking of a fit horse) Anyone with wagon train experience, or knowledge on merchant trains is welcome to step in and correct me because this is mainly supposition on my part; I imagine they would mainly walk (maybe some trotting depending on the party) for three or four hours and break for a couple of hours. A horse can walk about 3mph so that gives you about ten mile legs at the walk between breakfast and lunch and lunch and supper. Notice those are average times, not maximum times.

 

Hello there! Oh, this is a very interesting discussion! I don't know how I overlooked it, but I did. Becky gave me the heads-up so I can see I'll have some reading to do. This is really wonderful stuff, and the mileage table looks great. Going to have to sit and study that. Meanwhile, as I've not yet read all jillion posts in this thread, I just thought I'd add a brief comment to stuff here at the last. Namely, I'll overstate the obvious in noting that travel times/speeds will vary greatly by terrain, weather and the condition/age of the horse and especially the rider. (Edit:) By the latter, I mean by examples such as, a Ranger is probably going to make better time than a plump Gondorian lord who seldom travels horseback, and a Rohirrim lad may well be hardier than his Gondorian counterpart. Both examples given in that horses are not so integral to Gondorian life, so some travelers may not be up to the optimal mileage or speeds that a more experienced or competant rider can achieve. (end edit) I can vouch strongly that walking all day is tough, as the tendancy is to get heavy in one's seat, since there is no real need to post or be lighter as when at a trot or lope. But ... in mountainous or muddy terrain, a walk may be all you can manage, for the most part. So those factors plus how strong horse and rider are will vary travel speeds over the same distance somewhat. Uh, and if this has already been covered, just never mind me! Going off to admire the mileage chart, now. :-) Cheers ~ Erin

 

Sulriel - I remember you saying "watch your legs" on the Pelargir-Dol Amroth stuff when it was posted here, so maybe you just need a note to make that clearer. I would certainly see it as no great hardship to get out a map and check what was going on, given how much information you and Blue Iris have provided. Sulriel and ErinRua - thanks for the clarification on riding speeds. I was just wondering whether, if you had a party of nobles travelling from, say, Edoras to Minas Tirith in no great hurry, they would ride all day at a slow pace or set of mid morning, ride reasonably briskly for half the daylight hours (perhaps varying their pace according to the terrain) and then stop well before sunset to set up camp again. From what you say, it would be the latter. Thanks again for all the great information and effort. Cheers, Liz

 

I'm not sure what time you posted. I updated the draft, before I left this afternoon, so check and see if it is easier to read now. Erin, that is what I have tried to do with the speeds, and they may seem wildly inconsistant at first glance, -but, esp for the min times, I've tried to take into account the terrain, and things such as giveing the shorter distances (break at 50 miles and again at about 100) a higher average speed because the horse could do it at one short vs the longer routes where they will a absolutely require rest periods. I'm curious about your thoughts on riding through marshland. I have minimal experience at best. I thought they would not be able to move faster than a slow jog, if that. **also remember the average times are averages not maximums. If you remember, Bilbo and the dwarfs made about 10 miles per day on a good day., four miles a day in the mountains, and that was before the goblins ate the ponies.

 

This is Iris from MEARA calling in with your Trip-Tiks. It is no problem at all to provide service to our customers (snork!) Distances: Brandy Hall to Hobbiton: 60 miles Brandy Hall to Tuckborough: 63 Miles on Stock Road through Green Hill Country Hobbiton to Michel Delving: 65 Miles by road Hobbiton to Tuckborough: 15 Miles overland - fields and then Green Hill Country 50 Miles by finised road Tuckborough to Michel Delving: 55 Miles: most on Great East Road Tuckborough to Tookbank: 8 miles over Green Hill country along Stock Road Michel Delving to Greenholm (assuming location in Atlas of ME) : 43 Miles on Great East Road Greenholm to the Tower Hills: 50 Miles on Great East Road We will be back to you shortly with your longer distances. Can we interest you in any of our travel packages; a nice three day cruise along the Bay of Belfalas perhaps? A holiday on horseback in The Riddermark with your own personal Rider for a "guide"? Travelers' Checks? Thank you again for calling MEARA for your Middle-Earth travel needs.

 

Thanks so much, Blue Iris, for figuring these out. I've tried with the tiny maps in the back of my 'Return of the King', and find it very frustrating. 5. Minas Tirith to Rivendell going through Gondor toward the coast Please be more specific. Do you want to skirt to coast, bypassing the Ered Nimrais around the Cape of Andrast or do you simply want to go a route West of the mountains and through Gondor, Dunland, etc? A route west of the mountains and through Gondor, Dunland, etc. is what I was thinking of. Sorry I couldn't be more specific at the time, but I was at work and didn't have a map at hand. 3. Rivendell to the delta of the Greyflood: 400 Miles to Tharbad following the Bruinen 4. Delta of the Greyflood to Minas Tirith by way of the Gap of Rohan, and going along north of the White mountains Tharbad to Gap of Rohan: 325 Miles on Old South Road to the fords of Isen Would it be possible to change Tharbad to Lond Daer? Again, I apologize for not being specific before. Thanks again for all of this. It will help me with my story immensely! Arquen

 

Wow, these tables are nice. This will be the biggest help for my story! Thanks so much for making it, Sulriel! Now I won't have to keep bugging you with horse questions! Arquen

 

> A holiday on horseback in The Riddermark with your own personal Rider for a "guide"? Yes please!! Why the quotes? Does he do other stuff too? Snicker. Is he cute? Snicker snicker. Where do I sign up? I have no intelligent questions to ask, but wanted to post and say I am extremely excited about this resource and grateful to those devoting so much attention to it.

 

Cuter ones are available for a 30% surcharge, but there is a waiting list.

 

A holiday on horseback in The Riddermark with your own personal Rider for a "guide"?

I'm with DL7 - I'm ready to book my trip now. Blue Iris and Sulriel, may I say how impressed I am with this? Now I know who to ask when trying to figure out how long it will take Edrys to travel from her home in the Westfold to Aldburg - with a stopover at Edoras (which information I'll need sometime in the not so distant future for my OC's story - and that "leaving home" challenge, Sulriel ) Meanwhile, keep up the good work. ~Nessime

 

~Nessime, great to hear from you here. Yes, we are anxious for more of Edrys. I think I saw a trip tik with her name on the folder on Blue Iris' desk.

 

Lake Evendim/Annuminas overland to Bree: Follow Brandywine east southeast and then tirn south by southwest for Bree at river bend. Over fields just outside borders of The Shire: 175 Miles Bree to Edoras: Bree to Tharbad: 200 Miles on The Greenway Tharbad to Gap of Rohan: 325 Miles: Old South Road Gap of Rohan to Edoras: 125 Miles: Great East Road Edoras to Amon Din: 325 Miles: Great West Road Amon Din to Minas Tirith: 25 Miles: Great West Road I think 25 Miles is awfully close for relay stations. Sulriel, correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps 50-100 miles would be more like it? As for inns, I think you'd find the most on The Great West Road, considering the population centers of Edoras and Gondor and trade patterns. Bree to Tharbad may have a few but I think the most desolate would be the Tharbad-Gap leg of the journey. Ok, horse travel... The King has two kingdoms, Arnor and Gondor. How long would a message take, assuming relay riders with outposts every 25 miles or so? (or would they be closer?) This would be from Fornost or (cannot spell from memory the city on the shores of Lake Evendim) to Minas Tirith, or vice versa. How long would a group of travellers take, some in coaches (assuming improved roads after Elessar becomes king) and some outriders? Assuming fair travelling weather, dry roads. How far would one day's travel be? Do you think there'd be inns at regular intervals in the new kingdom?

 

Minas Tirith to Rivendell : A route west of the mountains and through Gondor, Dunland, etc. is what I was thinking of. Sorry I couldn't be more specific at the time, but I was at work and didn't have a map at hand. From Minas Tirith overland west through Lossarnach and Lebennin to break between White Mountains and Hills of Tarnost: 225 Miles fording Rivers Erui, Sirith, Serni, and Gilrain. Likely fields, plains, possibly some foothills. From Tarnost to Foothills of White Mountains (remember that they not only divide Gondor from Rohan but also curve to divide Gondor from Dunland and stretch down the Cape of Andrast) 300 Miles plains, rolling land, some intermittant hills as you near mountains. Fording Rivers Ringlo, Morthond, Lefnui. Over White Moumtains: 10 Miles at low mountain pass Other side of White Mountains north to River Isen: 75 Miles River Isen East into Dunland and Old South Road Near Gap of Rohan: 100 Miles Gap of Rohan to Tharbad: 325 Miles: Old South Road Tharbad to Rivendell: 400 Miles following the Mithiethiel NNE and then forking off to follow the Bruinen ENE. Tharbad to Gap of Rohan: 325 Miles on Old South Road to the fords of Isen. Would it be possible to change Tharbad to Lond Daer? Again, I apologize for not being specific before. Lond Daer - Gap of Rohan: 550 Miles Follow Gwathlo upriver overland to Tharbad and then as above to Gap of Rohan

 

Sulriel, You do realiize, that as founders of MEARA it is our obligation as well as travel industry 'best practice' that we are assured of the quality of all our guides and tours? And as travel agents, we do get the freebies..... Cuter ones are available for a 30% surcharge, but there is a waiting list.

 

obligation as well as travel industry 'best practice' that we are assured of the quality of all our guides and tours? And as travel agents, we do get the freebies..... practice ... yes .. . I did mention the 'waiting list' did I not? some were not quite up to snuff, and needed a little training and ...ahhhh ... polish.

 

pats disheveled hair back in place apologies for the delay in updates. RL has 'hold of me and it may be early next week before I can catch up with this project.

 

apologies for the delay in updates. RL has 'hold of me and it may be early next week before I can catch up with this project. You have been doing a phenomenal job, both of you! You don't have to apologize, we appreciate it. Boy, do we appreciate it. Maybe even enough to import especially cute caravan guides for 'relief' duties... Lyllyn

 

Maybe even enough to import especially cute caravan guides for 'relief' duties... MEARA is always looking for new tour packages to offer our customers. If you could send us a sample Haradrim or two it would be most appreciated. It would not hurt matters if they came in the Omar Sharif circa Lawrence of Arabia style.

 

Is there a map that all these distances could be put onto, or perhaps just a table that had (for example): From - To - Distance With the list underneath, so all the distances from the shire, then rivendell etc I havent read all the mesages so maybe it was already suggested or will be done but I'll help if helps needed! I do know its a 3 day journey from Edoras to Minas Tirith, sadly its as the Nazgul flies... Cola xx

 

How long would it take two hobbits riding on ponies to travel from Brandybuck Hall to the Prancing Pony? I need, for story purposes, this to take longer than a day and a half if that's reasonable. And they're trying to avoid being seen without getting lost, so I assume they'll be travelling offroad but following its course. Marta

 

OK, Fourth Age, from Hobbiton to Minas Tirith mode of transportation: wagon season at beginning: Afteryule Please, pretty please?

 

In winter with wagons you wlll need to stay on an all road journey so here you go. Hobbiton to Bree: 100 Miles on East Road Bree to Tharbad: 200 Miles on The Greenway Tharbad to Gap of Rohan: 325 Miles: Old South Road Gap of Rohan to Edoras: 125 Miles: Great East Road Edoras to Minas Tirith: 350 Miles: Great West Road

 

About 50 miles overland including forest and downs.

 

THANK YOU! You have my eternal gratitude!

 

For a swift rider, how long would it take to go from Lothlorien to The Shire, say Hobbiton? Thanks! Cola xx

 

OK, Fourth Age, from Hobbiton to Minas Tirith mode of transportation: wagon season at beginning: Afteryule Popping out of lurkage ~ A point to remember with wagons is that they make about half the mileage in a day that horses and riders can make. Riders can vary their pace from walk, trot to canter, but wagons ... go one speed. Especially on a long journey. Also, among the American pioneers it was common for wagon trains to make a rather long lunch stop of two or three hours, to allow the animals pulling the wagon a chance to step out of their traces and relax, eat, drink, etc. So, for wagons .... 15 miles per day is probably maximum. Less if the road is hilly, rocky or muddy. :-) Cheers ~ Erin

 

For a swift rider, how long would it take to go from Lothlorien to The Shire, say Hobbiton? Thanks! Cola xx Hmm .... It's a long way, so "swift" will be relative. It looks like 300 miles from Hobbiton to Tharbad, and maybe the same again from Tharbad to Lorien - as the crow flies. But, since Lorien is on the other side of the mountains and Moria lies between, I would think a rider has to go all the way south to the Gap of Rohan. It's another 350 miles from Tharbad to the Gap of Rohan, with about the same distance back up to Lorien ... So looks like that makes it about 950 miles from Lorien to Hobbiton. (There is the pass over the mountains above Lorien and below Moria, Redhorn Pass, but that is where Celebrain was ambushed and I don't know if it is traversable by horses. Depending on your timeframe, that is likely a very risky route.) Anywho, so if it's @ 950 miles from Lorien to Hobbiton, then at 30 miles per day for a rider that is @ 31 days. However, one should stop for periodic layover days along the way, to preserve the horse's strength and condition, so add on another 4 or 5 days to be scattered amongst that 31 days of travel. At least that's how it's coming out in my reckoning. Anyone else have some better figures, here? Granted, if we're thinking elves and elvish horses, then maybe my purely mortal figures are going to be thrown out the window. But for mortal horses and riders, there's just no "fast" way to make 950 miles. Dunno if this helps, and if anyone has better figures and estimates, please do speak up and set me straight. Cheers ~ Erin

 

My Reckoning of Lorien to Hobbiton is thus: 725 miles Caras Galadhon to Mountain Foothills following Celebrant: 100 Miles Redhorn Pass over Mountains: estimate 100 miles for switchbacks & up/down - high mountain pass Foothills to Tharbad following Swenfleet/Sirannon : 225 Miles - decreasingly rough terrain Tharbad to Bree: 200 Miles on The Greenway Bree to Hobbiton: 100 Miles on East Road Question is do you want to take horses over the mountain passes. otherwise you are talking major out of the way through the gap of Rohan........

 

Sorry if i've missed this in a quick scan of the posts, but where are these wonderfully useful distances etc. being stored? Is there a cumulated table of them anywhere for future reference? Nickey

 

Hi Nickey, they are currently here: Travel Times I'm trying to find a solid few hours of quiet time so I can catch up with the updates, but we plan for this chart to loaded in resources when it is finished.

 

[My Reckoning of Lorien to Hobbiton is thus: 725 miles [snippage] Question is do you want to take horses over the mountain passes. otherwise you are talking major out of the way through the gap of Rohan........] Thank you, Blue Iris! I had no clue about the mileage over Redhorn Pass. As you note, going via the Gap of Rohan is seriously longer. A point to bear in mind regarding steep passes, from someone who has done years of mountain travel ... not all passes are horse-navigable. Too many rocks and too much broken ground can easily cripple a horse, if not kill it in a fall. (Which does occasionally happen.) So one would have to either find out or decide whether Redhorn might be fit for horses. If the decision is that it IS ... it will be very slow going. There is no 30 miles a day riding over mountain passes, as there is on good roads. Sometimes a good day's travel in the mountains is only 10 or 15 miles per day, since the pace is strictly at a walk and often slowing to pick through rough terrain. Altitude, rocks, rough ground all take their toll on a horse, just as they do humans. Does anyone know if Celebrain's party was on foot or mounted? That would give some indication of how rough Redhorn Pass really was - or was not. Umm, and I'll shut up now. Thanks for helping with your figures, Iris! Cheers ~ Erin

 

I was wondering how long it would take for an elf to ride to Rivendell from Mirkwood via the elf path. Aranel

 

Hi Aranel welcome to HASA - glad to see you're finding your way around and getting involved with some of the great resources here. (Hats off again to Sulriel and Blue Iris for all their work compiling the information in this thread!) I was wondering how long it would take for an elf to ride to Rivendell from Mirkwood via the elf path. This is a pretty popular request and has already been answered! You can find the details about halfway down the page of Travel Times compiled by Sulriel and Blue Iris. Cheers, Liz/Tanaqui HASA Welcome and Beta Manager

 

I think 25 Miles is awfully close for relay stations. Sulriel, correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps 50-100 miles would be more like it? edit: / correction: pony express stations and wagon relay stations were historically only about 10-15 miles apart. see Erin's post below this one incorrect information deleted from this post to avoid confusion -otherwise, it depends on what you are calling a relay station. I think many towns are 20-30 miles apart because that was an average days travel in horse&buggy days. forgive me if this has already been answered, I didn't want to tell on myself, how far behind I am on this, but I scanned the list and didn't see an answer .... with my luck I've already answered it once before and missed seeing my own previous post.!

 

Erin, ! Thanks for helping out. I've been distracted, ... I got better!! ...said in the tone of he who is no longer a newt

 

So, for wagons .... 15 miles per day is probably maximum. Less if the road is hilly, rocky or muddy. :-) Cheers ~ Erin Thank you for this one especially, an on the mountain travel. I've done none of either and wasn't sure how to figure it.! question: traveling that slowly, should I just do the math, or add in a full day of rest every few days? Maybe every 5 days? edit: I divided the distance by 15, rounded up and added a day for every 4-5 days on the road. Do you feel that is reasonable? (no min times on this since it specified wagons in winter) Hobbiton Minas Tirith Wagon / Afteryule season (winter) Hobbiton Bree 100 miles 8 days East Road Bree Thrabad 200 miles 16 days The Greenway Tharbad Gap of Rohan 325 miles 26 days Old South Road Gap of Rohan Edoras 125 miles 11 days Great East Road Edoras Minas Tirith 350 miles 28 days Great West Road

 

How long would it take two hobbits riding on ponies to travel from Brandybuck Hall to the Prancing Pony? I need, for story purposes, this to take longer than a day and a half if that's reasonable. And they're trying to avoid being seen without getting lost, so I assume they'll be travelling offroad but following its course. Marta Blue Iris said: Re: Buckland to Bree About 50 miles overland including forest and downs. Marta, (and all) I'm sorry it has taken so long for me to get back on this. Your hobbits could easily take 2 days or more on this trip.

 

A couple people said: I think 25 Miles is awfully close for relay stations. Sulriel, correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps 50-100 miles would be more like it? I think that may be about right. It seems like I remember the pony express stations were about that. A horse can go pretty hard for that distance, in 1:45 or 2 hrs, and by picking up a fresh horse, you can maintain the speed without lowering your average. Actually, Pony Express stations were @ every 10 to 15 miles. The reason for this being, that's about as far as a horse can go at top speeds and keep any sort of condition at all. Pony riders generally changed horses twice in one ride, covering about 35 miles per ride. (Keep in mind this is entirely at the run, so both horses and men are well-used.) Some Pony Express riders became famous for making rides of 100 or 200 miles or more, when they had to cover for other riders that were killed or disabled, but those were acceptions to the rule. Mileages for overland stagecoach stations were about the same, roughly 12-15 miles apart, sometimes 20, whereupon they would change teams. (Edit: As a note of trivia, this regularity of distance makes it possible for historians out West to accurately track down the sites of such places, just by following the old roads/trails and watching the mileage.) So it would depend on the speeds your messengers use. If they go rocketing along at a Pony Express pace, they need more frequent remounts. If they just trot comfortably over the road, they can pace their horses more kindly and get more miles out of them. Hope this helps! Cheers ~ Erin *Who is a Western history buff and has ridden a lot of Pony Express and Overland Stage country*

 

A point to remember with wagons is that they make about half the mileage in a day that horses and riders can make. Riders can vary their pace from walk, trot to canter, but wagons ... go one speed. Especially on a long journey. Also, among the American pioneers it was common for wagon trains to make a rather long lunch stop of two or three hours, to allow the animals pulling the wagon a chance to step out of their traces and relax, eat, drink, etc. So, for wagons .... 15 miles per day is probably maximum. Less if the road is hilly, rocky or muddy. :-) Cheers ~ Erin, Do you mind if I copy this directly to the notes at the top of the Travel report? I'll go ahead and paste it, let me know if you want to edit or tweak for before it goes online.. ....see what you got yourself into ... !!

 

Wonderful! Thank you (again!) for the correction. I'm going to scroll up and edit my post so no one will be confused by it in the future.

 

I think many towns are 20-30 miles apart because that was an average days travel in horse&buggy days. And just to add (only slightly off topic) that in much of England, many market towns seem to be roughly twelve miles apart. Most people didn't have access to horse transport of any sort and this gives each market town a catchment area of a circle with a radius of about six miles or two hours walk. Cheers, Liz

 

edit: I divided the distance by 15, rounded up and added a day for every 4-5 days on the road. Do you feel that is reasonable? (no min times on this since it specified wagons in winter) I think a layover day every 4-5 days is very good. If the terrain is especially hard, or if the roads get boggy, two days rest would be well. On arduous trails over several weeks' travel, a horse can pull down and lose weight and condition, so husbanding them over a long journey is important. Those layover days allow them to relax, physically and mentally, and really eat their fill and not burn it back off right away. Of course, I *am* speaking of our mortal horses, so elvish horses may be quite different. ;) Which means don't take my equine anal-ness too much to heart! LOL! Cheers ~ Erin

 

walking vs horseback would definitely be something consider, especially in the more civilized areas. There seems to be a string of towns in the foothills of the White Mountains from Minas Tirith west to the Fenmarch, but they look like they are about 30 or more miles apart. I would make the assumption that the areas around cities such as MT, Dol Amroth, Ethring, etc would have outlying towns within walking distance for the populace.

 

Erin, Do you mind if I copy this directly to the notes at the top of the Travel report? I'll go ahead and paste it, let me know if you want to edit or tweak for before it goes online.. ....see what you got yourself into ... !! ROTFL! Yeah, scary - makes me dearly hope I never get my facts mixed up! But yes, you are welcome to borrow whatever I say that might actually make sense. Cheers ~ Erin

 

Of course, I *am* speaking of our mortal horses, so elvish horses may be quite different. ;) Which means don't take my equine anal-ness too much to heart! LOL! Cheers no problem. I've shaved a little on the minimum times, knowing what might be available, but otherwise, I think we are good to assume mortal-normal.

 

The only information I'm finding in teh Atlas on the Redhorn Pass is from when the Fellowship doesn't go through it. I'm not finding any information on the elevation except as follows: The Redhorn was the tallest and most Northerly (of the towering mountains), and it held the lode veins of mithril silver. .... South of Caradhras was a steep winding path over which one could cross the Misty Mountains: the Redhorn Gate. The western road was "twisting and climbing... in many places had almost disappeared." At the east end it descended into a deep dale, beside "an endless stair of short falls." Gandalf has reckoned it would take "more than two marches" to reach the top of the pass; but the Fellowship was forced down my snow, and instead moved southwest to the Hollin Gate."

 

I think the spreadsheet is caught up with the thread. I think! Please! check, comment, verify!! The formatting is making me nuts, dratted maggoty ms-Word ... but I've tried to fix the inconsistancies in font size and type, and keep the left/right justificaition correct for main routes and legs. outside link opens in new window here ==> Travel Times

 

Hey! pssst Blue Iris, ErinRua, ... we need pics of the other MeARA staff members.!! send them to sulriel@htcomp.net and I'll add them to the page.

 

There seems to be a string of towns in the foothills of the White Mountains from Minas Tirith west to the Fenmarch, but they look like they are about 30 or more miles apart. The places on the map are possibly the equivalent of "county towns" ie the major place in a particular area where you would find the seat of local government for the area, law courts etc and where the big annual fairs (as opposed to the weekly produce markets) would be held. In between them there might well be small towns with weekly markets which were in walking distance of most of the population. Cheers, Liz

 

The places on the map are possibly the equivalent of "county towns" ie the major place in a particular area where you would find the seat of local government for the area, law courts etc and where the big annual fairs (as opposed to the weekly produce markets) would be held. In between them there might well be small towns with weekly markets which were in walking distance of most of the population. I would guess that this would have to be the case, especially in the more populated areas.

 

The Old Forest Road was south of the Mountains of Mirkwood and though maintained by the Woodmen, it was in more dangerous territory than the Elf Path. I seem to remember a reference somewhere that it had become very perilous to travel and hardly anyone used it anymore in late TA. But, unfortunately, I can’t find the quote and so I can’t put much confidence in that. Ithildin *( Sorry to come in so late, Ithildin, but here's the quote you were looking for, from The Hobbit (the emphasis is mine): 2941 III: By his [Beorn's] advice they [Thorin Oakenshield's company] were no longer making for the main forest-road [The Old Forest Road] to the south of his land. Had they followed the pass [The High Pass of Rivendell], their path would have led them down a stream from the mountains that joined the great river miles south of the Carrock. At that point there was a deep ford [The Old Ford] which they might have passed, if they had still had their ponies, and beyond that a track led to the skirts of the wood and to the entrance of the old forest road. But Beorn had warned them that that way was now often used by the goblins, while the forest-road itself, he had heard, was overgrown and disused at the eastern end and led to the impassable marshes where the path had long been lost. The Hobbit, Ch 7, Queer Lodgings - Barbara

 

I'll add a note on the route, but it is going to depend on the time period. Do we have any notes as to when the Old Forest Road was built, safe, maintained or not. and the same on the Forest Path?

 

added: *see refs re: the time period & relative safety of the Old Forest Rd vs the Forest Path. During the period of The Hobbit, Beorn warns of the dangers of the F.Road

 

Do we have any notes as to when the Old Forest Road was built, safe, maintained or not. and the same on the Forest Path? The Old Forest Road is "ancient". It certainly predates the Last Alliance, probably by a lot (at least in Tolkien's mind during his early drafts). The exact quote from the Unfinished Tales is in the Resources entry: The Old Forest Road. (Edit: Ha! The third time's the charm... the link actually works now.) (Edit 2: And it opens in a new window, too.) Let me see if I can find anything equivalent about the Forest Path. - Barbara, who, once she starts looking things up in Researcher mode, can't stop findng Resource tidbits...

 

very nice, Barbara. I didn't realize how busy you have been, in addition to your genealogies. I think, for the specific purpose of this report, since the Old Forest Road is really that old, we need a date range that it would have been dangerous/impassable. but this makes me think we need a companion piece, that lists the founding dates of the departure/destination locations, and the building dates of the roads. (I would assume those would correspond with the cities being built)

 

Hey! pssst Blue Iris, ErinRua, ... we need pics of the other MeARA staff members.!! send them to sulriel@htcomp.net and I'll add them to the page. Staff member - I've been promoted! Well, sorta ... I see I'm also the resident scapehobbit for the group if any of our figures are wrong! But just you leave my past out of this. Uh, picture, okay, picture ... What size would you want? I'm presuming nice little one like you have there? Gotta dig around for a picture of me with an equine friend ... Cheers ~ Erin

 

Elena Tiriel, Thank you for finding that quote! and very nice article, too. Ithildin *(

 

Thanks, Ithildin! (Edit: ) Do you know anywhere in canon where that path is actually called the Elf Path? Lyllyn already checked Elven Path and Elvish Path, but I didn't remember to ask about Elf Path. I'm trying to pull together a Resources entry on the path (like my Old Forest Road one), and don't know exactly what to call it. - Barbara Who seems to attract all sorts of resource nuzgûls about that part of the world, as mentioned in The Hobbit... As part of my research this evening about the Forest Path (whatever it's actually called), I've updated entries on The Beornings and The Old Forest Road, and added an entry for Honey-cakes of the Beornings, and started a bio for The Lord of The Eagles (aka The King of All Birds). All from the same chapter of The Hobbit...

 

Random travel-time tidbit: from Beorn's home, near the Carrock, to the Forest Gate on the west side of Mirkwood via pony: That third evening they [Thorin Oakenshield's company] were so eager to press on, for Beorn had said that they should reach the forest-gate early on the fourth-day, that they rode still forward after dusk and into the night beneath the moon. The Hobbit, Ch 7, Queer Lodgings (Edit Later in the chapter, Gandalf says: "You do not guess what kindness he {Beorn} has shown you in letting dwarves ride them [Beorn's ponies] so far and so fast..." So, maybe that time estimate is a lower bound? There's also some contemporaneous (canon!) travel-time estimates for Osgiliath(?) to Rivendell over the High Pass in Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields... but I don't have time to open that can of worms, er, book, right now. (Something on the order of 40 days(?) by horse-back... IIRC) - Barbara Sorry if these have already been mentioned...

 

Random travel-time tidbit: from Beorn's home, near the Carrock, to the Forest Gate on the west side of Mirkwood via pony: That third evening they [Thorin Oakenshield's company] were so eager to press on, for Beorn had said that they should reach the forest-gate early on the fourth-day, that they rode still forward after dusk and into the night beneath the moon. The Hobbit, Ch 7, Queer Lodgings (Edit Later in the chapter, Gandalf says: "You do not guess what kindness he {Beorn} has shown you in letting dwarves ride them [Beorn's ponies] so far and so fast..." So, maybe that time estimate is a lower bound? The travel times from The Hobbit seem a bit extended compared to similar examples in LOTR – often the disparity is greater than could be expected even after making allowances for obvious differences in the situations. The ME Atlas has a map with daily travel estimated and clearly the Dwarves and Bilbo made less progress per day than they probably could have. I expect the travel times are one of the things Tolkien would have changed if he had been able to rewrite The Hobbit as he wanted to. Not like any of this could come easy, right? ;) Ithildin *(

 

The travel times from The Hobbit seem a bit extended compared to similar examples in LOTR – often the disparity is greater than could be expected even after making allowances for obvious differences in the situations. The ME Atlas has a map with daily travel estimated and clearly the Dwarves and Bilbo made less progress per day than they probably could have. Obviously, Tolkien should have consulted the ME Atlas before writing The Hobbit. Oh, wait...

 

Obviously, Tolkien should have consulted the ME Atlas before writing The Hobbit. Oh, wait... /snicker/ IIRC, they only made three or four miles some days. I imagine a lot of fussing about who would lead each pony and all those stops for 2nd breakfast would have slowed the pace considerably.

 

There's also some contemporaneous (canon!) travel-time estimates for Osgiliath(?) to Rivendell over the High Pass in Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields... but I don't have time to open that can of worms, er, book, right now. (Something on the order of 40 days(?) by horse-back... IIRC) oddly enough, the Osgiliath to Rivendell via the Anduin trip is not one of our more popular offerings. I believe the jewelry surcharge does put some people off, but we expected the Heirs of Elendil reenactors to be able to offset that with their exciting swordplay. .... but for some reason, we've not had a single repeat customer from that tour.

 

(Something on the order of 40 days(?) by horse-back... IIRC) sorry, I was a little distracted. ... yes, I looked it up. 40 days, but walking, not on horseback.

 

sorry, I was a little distracted. ... yes, I looked it up. 40 days, but walking, not on horseback. Sulriel, Distracted???? I thought we had already tested and approved the last contingent of Rohirric tour guides. Or have new tour-guide applicants arrived; ones you've told me nothing of? Iris

 

.... but for some reason, we've not had a single repeat customer from that tour. Bet they never get past the Orc reenactors in the Gladden Fields... *snert*

 

very nice, Barbara. I didn't realize how busy you have been, in addition to your genealogies. Thanks, Sulriel! And I just realized that I hadn't said this before: This resource that you and Blue Iris are putting together is truly marvelous. Thank you! I think, for the specific purpose of this report, since the Old Forest Road is really that old, we need a date range that it would have been dangerous/impassable. I can't take on that project, but I did make a small contribution to the research: Assuming that the fortunes of The Old Forest Road are inversely tied to the fortunes of Dol Guldur, I added the history entries from Tale of Years for Dol Guldur into its Resource article, under Places: Dol Guldur. Hope this helps a little! (Edit: ) I think Ithildin is looking at this... but this makes me think we need a companion piece, that lists the founding dates of the departure/destination locations, and the building dates of the roads. (I would assume those would correspond with the cities being built) Resource Nuzgûls grow like bamboo and breed like tribbles... Trust me, I know! - Barbara

 

Okay, I've added Resources entries for the Elf-path and the Forest Gate (the only thing relevant there is that there is a spring just outside the gate, so you can refill your water-skins). I tried to include as much information as I could find about the terrain (mostly flat), trail conditions (narrow and winding), ground cover (lots of leaves), conditions (dark), flora and fauna, and dangers (the enchanted river), psychology (creepy atmosphere, millions of glowing eyes at night, not to mention hunger and thirst...) as well as some sense of elapsed time. However, since Thorin Oakenshield's company was hijacked, that info kind of peters out... - Barbara P.S. got a little carried away with the spiders...

 

.... but for some reason, we've not had a single repeat customer from that tour. Bet they never get past the Orc reenactors in the Gladden Fields... *snert*

My poor keyboard will never recover... ~Nessime *off to get a fresh cup of coffee*

 

Okay, I've added Resources entries for the Elf-path and the Forest Gate...

Barbara, there's something odd with the links; they both take me to the member's log in page. ~Nessime PS added - Very odd - now they're working just fine.

 

Barbara, there's something odd with the links; they both take me to the member's log in page. ~Nessime PS added - Very odd - now they're working just fine. Oh, dear -- wait 'til you see all the links in the Elf-path entry... Um, does the excuse that "they worked for me" count for anything? - Barbara P.S. Sorry about the coffee... and the keyboard... hope your fingers didn't get scalded...

 

Hi Barbara you need http://www.henneth-annun.net at the start (not http://henneth-annun.net). Better still, have a look at the hyperlinks tutorial and edit them so that you only have eg href=../resources/places_view.cfm?plid=293 Cheers, Liz

 

Thanks, Liz! I'll put the www. in my template... hadn't realized that I had left it out. My browser (IE) doesn't require it, but it's certainly possible that others do. And as for the hyperlinks tutorial, that's what I tried first and couldn't get the relative address links to work (I always *prefer* to use relative addressing, and was very pleased to see it in the tutorial). One post I had to edit three times before I got the link to work! Granted, I was tired at the time and could have been making an error, but when I got something that worked I just copied and pasted it to a template. So, I will try to get relative addresses to work (again - never had a problem with the tutorial templates before) and update my template and list of Resource links. *Sigh* this probably wasn't a good time to start cross-linking all my resource entries. The Elf-path entry alone probably has dozens of cross-links. I'll have to go back through all the entries I created or edited yesterday to fix the links, once I get the format right. That will be about a dozen entries... *sniffle* Good thing I keep my Resource entries as text files, and can do global search-and-replaces... I did *something* right! - Barbara (Edit: ) Okay, I found my error in the relative addresses. For some reason, I thought you always had to have the "http://", but that is not the case with relative addresses. Will change all my links and, more importantly, all my entries to relative addressing. Thanks for your help, Liz! (Edit 2: ) Not to mention, all my posts from yesterday... now, why couldn't yesterday have been a lurking-only day?

 

Four Routes from Minas Tirith to Rivendell: Minas Tirith-Rivendell through Gap of Rohan Minas Tirith-Edoras: 325 miles Edoras to Gap of Rohan: 125 Miles Gap of Rohan to Tharbad: 325 Miles: Old South Road Tharbad to Rivendell: 400 Miles following the Mithiethiel NNE and then forking off to follow the Bruinen ENE Minas Tirith to Rivendell - Rohan/Anduin/HighPass (bypass Rauros and Emyn Muil) Minas Tirith to Mering Stream along Great West Road: 200 Miles Mering Stream overland to Anduin: 225 Miles (area of Wold/South Undeep) Wold to Field of Celebrant Following Anduin: 75 Miles Field of Celebrant to Lorien: 125 Miles following Anduin Lorien to Gladden Fields: 150 Miles Gladden Fields to Old Ford: 125 Miles Old Ford to Misty Mountains - 50 miles - typical up-slope land form- still on Old Forest Road. Turn North to take High Pass across mountains - 12 Miles - foothills overland or unfinished road/path Start of High Pass over Misty Mountains to Rivendell: 125 Miles mountain switchbacks, up-down, necessary detour around obstacle. Mountain terrain and all attendant difficulties Minas Tirith-Rivendell – All Anduin/High Pass Minas Tirith-Cair Andros: 50 Miles Cair Andros –Rauros: 200 Miles (most through Mouths of Entwash/Wetwang) Rauros through Emyn Muil: 100 Miles Downs and Brown Lands to Field of Celebrant: 130 Miles Field of Celebrant to Lorien: 125 Miles following Anduin Lorien to Gladden Fields: 150 Miles Gladden Fields to Old Ford: 125 Miles Old Ford to Misty Mountains - 50 miles - typical up-slope land form- still on Old Forest Road. Turn North to take High Pass across mountains - 12 Miles - foothills overland or unfinished road/path Start of High Pass over Misty Mountains to Rivendell: 125 Miles mountain switchbacks, up-down, necessary detour around obstacle. Mountain terrain and all attendant difficulties Minas Tirith to Rivendell – West of Mountains through Dunland From Minas Tirith overland west through Lossarnach and Lebennin to break between White Mountains and Hills of Tarnost: 225 Miles fording Rivers Erui, Sirith, Serni, and Gilrain. Likely fields, plains, possibly some foothills. From Tarnost to Foothills of White Mountains 300 Miles (remember that they not only divide Gondor from Rohan but also curve to divide Gondor from Dunland and stretch down the Cape of Andrast) plains, rolling land, some intermittant hills as you near mountains. Fording Rivers Ringlo, Morthond, Lefnui. Over White Moumtains: 10 Miles at low mountain pass Other side of White Mountains north to River Isen: 75 Miles River Isen East into Dunland and Old South Road Near Gap of Rohan: 100 Miles Gap of Rohan to Tharbad: 325 Miles: Old South Road Tharbad to Rivendell: 400 Miles following the Mithiethiel NNE and then forking off to follow the Bruinen ENE.

 

Barbara, there's something odd with the links; they both take me to the member's log in page. ~Nessime I edited my post to use relative links. They should work consistently now. Thanks for the heads-up! - Barbara

 

Four Routes from Minas Tirith to Rivendell Four Routes from Minas Tirith to Rivendell: ...updating. look for a new draft shortly.

 

Bet they never get past the Orc reenactors in the Gladden Fields... *snert* well ... uummm. ... yes.. those guys... . .... they are very dedicated to their craft..

 

The Old Forest Road is "ancient". It certainly predates the Last Alliance, probably by a lot (at least in Tolkien's mind during his early drafts). The exact quote from the Unfinished Tales is in the Resources entry: The Old Forest Road. Barbara, you are amazing. I'll have to think of the best way to incorp this in the chart. I'm wondering if it would be better to have a general note at the top to check Resouces-Places for the existence of your route in the Age of your fic. Assuming that the fortunes of The Old Forest Road are inversely tied to the fortunes of Dol Guldur, I added the history entries from Tale of Years for Dol Guldur into its Resource article, under Places: Dol Guldur. Hope this helps a little! good! this makes sense, I'll squeeze an additional comment in the box.

 

Bet they never get past the Orc reenactors in the Gladden Fields... *snert* well ... uummm. ... yes.. those guys... . .... they are very dedicated to their craft.. You will both be pleased to know that the home-office of MeARA has had a little chat with our Orc reenactors. They have agreed to tone down the FARBism and will content themselves with attacking large hunks of raw beef attached to dummies. However, they are still invoking their FARBish right not to bathe so gas masks are still a must for all passing the Gladden Fields. **for those who have never done reenacting, FARB stands for: " FAR Be it for me to criticize your garb but that exact hue of goldenrod was not introduced until 1760 and you are reenacting 1715" and likewise nitpicking

 

**for those who have never done reenacting, FARB stands for: " FAR Be it for me to criticize your garb but that exact hue of goldenrod was not introduced until 1760 and you are reenacting 1715" and likewise nitpicking LOL! Hey, we need these folks on the Resources team! - Barbara

 

Barbara, you are amazing. LOL! All I do is compile existing information from Tolkien's books. You guys are the ones who are actually doing the thinking! I'll have to think of the best way to incorp this in the chart. I'm wondering if it would be better to have a general note at the top to check Resouces-Places for the existence of your route in the Age of your fic. I think that's a great idea, especially since we're constantly updating the Places and Events as new information (and time) permits. And I'm sure Lyllyn and Nessime won't mind the Resources plug... (Lyllyn just announced that there are almost 300 entries in Places!) good! this makes sense, I'll squeeze an additional comment in the box. How in the world did we survive before spreadsheets were invented? - Barbara

 

You will both be pleased to know that the home-office of MeARA has had a little chat with our Orc reenactors. They have agreed to tone down the FARBism and will content themselves with attacking large hunks of raw beef attached to dummies. However, they are still invoking their FARBish right not to bathe so gas masks are still a must for all passing the Gladden Fields. **for those who have never done reenacting, FARB stands for: " FAR Be it for me to criticize your garb but that exact hue of goldenrod was not introduced until 1760 and you are reenacting 1715" and likewise nitpicking BUAHAHAHAHAHA! *SNORK*!!! I never thought to see THAT term here! I am in Civil War reenacting, so FARBiness is absolutely a term I am familiar with. LOL, but I consider myself more "progressive" than "hardcore" - I like things like a real bed at night and a hot shower after a day on the field. Stewing in my own stink is just a leeeeetle too authentic for me. Ewww, and orc sweat ...... Cheers ~ Erin

 

And I'm sure Lyllyn and Nessime won't mind the Resources plug... (Lyllyn just announced that there are almost 300 entries in Places!) Mind, who me? Ang has now put up a table template, and I've started a table just to get the feel of it. When we're ready, we can move from off-list, and do it as an add-a-chapter article. I also started a discussion in the Reference library entries discussion, so as not to interfere here, but the key question is how to organize all this wonderful information. The list is so big, that it should be several tables, each table in its own chapter of an article. I have some thoughts on how to break it up, but the experts are here and I'd love to hear ideas so your hard work can be presented in the most useful way. Lyllyn

 

Ah, this is a wonderful topic! (I apologize if this ones been asked already but as far as I know it hasnt) Approximately how many days/weeks would it take to get from, say, west of the Blue Mountains to Rivendel by a horse drawn cart/wagon and on horseback? And from Mirkwood to Lothlorein with a small part of horseback riders? Thanks ~VG

 

Approximately how many days/weeks would it take to get from, say, west of the Blue Mountains to Rivendel by a horse drawn cart/wagon and on horseback? Vanima, Where along the Blue Mountains are you starting from? They stretch a good 400 miles north to south from near the Ice Bay to the Gulf of Lune. Will need this info for travel times. B. Iris

 

Approximately how many days/weeks would it take to get from, say, west of the Blue Mountains to Rivendel by a horse drawn cart/wagon and on horseback? Vanima, Where along the Blue Mountains are you starting from? They stretch a good 400 miles north to south from near the Ice Bay to the Gulf of Lune. Will need this info for distance calculation. B. Iris

 

And from Mirkwood to Lothlorein with a small part of horseback riders? Thanks Distance from Thranduil's halls to Caras Galadhon. Mirkwood and Lothlorien are regions so I am givng you their "administrative centers" Thranduils Caverns - Anduin (via Forest Path) 225 Miles Anduin south to Caras Galadhon: 425 Miles B. Iris

 

Oops. Sorry. From say, Forlindon? Or maybe Forlond, either works. Thanks-you. ~VG

 

Oops. Sorry. From say, Forlindon? Or maybe Forlond, either works. Thanks-you. ~VG Forlindon is the region so I am going to give you from Forlond. Forlond to Gray Havens: 225 Miles The Gray havens are on both sides of there the River Lhun just widens to become the Gulf of Lhun. There does not appear to be a bridge across the River Lhun and yu woll need to cross for quickest transit.; so maybe there is a ferry or something??? Gray Havens and over Tower Hills: 65 Miles From there you will go:Tower Hills-Michel Delving-Hobbiton-Bree-Imladris The legs are all in above posts. Unless of coruse you are in post-edict Fourth Age and are not a Hobbit; whereupon Elessar has made it a royal pain to travel. Let me know if you need any "special" MeARA services in this regard B. Iris

 

Let me know if you need any "special" MeARA services Can I have the Rohirrim Tour Guide special? Preferably one who looks like Éomer... and he can take me anywhere he wants for as long as he likes... - Barbara

 

Can I have the Rohirrim Tour Guide special? Preferably one who looks like Éomer... and he can take me anywhere he wants for as long as he likes... - Barbara Barbara Do you even need to ask me? I have you first on the list AND set up on a two-for-one special; a set of Rohirric twin riders we have just vetted. Delightful young men indeed, looking much like to Eomer himself. It is the least the front office can do for someone who has been a good friend since the days when we were just a freelance small-time hash fic dealer. B. Iris

 

I have you first on the list AND set up on a two-for-one special; a set of Rohirric twin riders *Gasp!* Squeeeeeeeeee! I'm packing my riding crop um, habit now... - B

 

now Barbara, ..... do we really need to know your habits in this sort of thing ?!?!?! !.... ....don't forget your lariat, you never know when a bit of rope might come in handy

 

Thranduils Caverns - Anduin (via Forest Path) 225 Miles Anduin south to Caras Galadhon: 425 Miles we have this note: see refs re: the time period & relative safety of the Old Forest Rd vs the Forest Path. It could be assumed that the safety of passage of The Old Forest Road is inversely tied to the rise of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur. directions: Thranduil's Caverns Laketown 50 miles 5.5 hrs 2 days from the edge of Mirkwood, thru Long Marshes as the Forest River enters Long Lake. Celeduin Old Forest Road 75 miles 1 day 4 days edge of Mirkwood Old Forest Road thru Mirkwood 200 miles 3 days 7.5 days spiders and nasties / on avg tt - 30 mpd; no rest days because of danger Edge of Mirkwood River Anduin 25 miles 2 hrs 1 day cross at Old Ford, terrain likely flat, stay on road Anduin south to Caras Galadhon, 425 miles 5 days 22 days grassy plains, floodplain, gently rolling

 

Forlond Mithlond / Grey Havens 225 miles 3 days 8 days The Gray havens are on both sides of there the River Lhun just widens to become the Gulf of Lhun. There does not appear to be a bridge across the River Lhun and you will need to cross for quickest transit; so assume a ferry. Grey Havens over Tower Hills 65 miles 7 hours 2 days a reminder that the full updated spreadsheet draft is at Travel Times Draft

 

The only information I'm finding in the Atlas on the Redhorn Pass is from when the Fellowship doesn't go through it. Hi Sulriel! FYI, I just entered a new Resource Library entry for the Redhorn Gate (aka Redhorn Pass, aka Pass of Caradhras). You can find it here: Redhorn Gate. I tried to include anything and everything that would be relevant to travel times, including terrain, weather, being watched by crebain ( ), road conditions, landslides, the malice of the mountain, etc. Notice that the entry starts with the Company arriving at the Hollin Ridge, which is on the ME Atlas maps, and includes any mention of how many days (and from where) I could find... And there are new entries for the related topics: the Dimrill Stair and the Road from Hollin to the Redhorn Gate; but these don't really add any new info that's not in the main entry. Hope this helps, or at least doesn't confuse anything too badly... - Barbara (Edit: ) Note that the Fellowship was not only travelling by foot, but also at night... (Edit 2: ) P.S. The Fellowship *still* doesn't make it thru the pass...

 

Do we have any notes as to when the Old Forest Road was built, safe, maintained or not. and the same on the Forest Path? I just found something new (to me): even the Elf-path became unusable in the "recent years" before the Quest of Erebor (2941 III) due to floods and earthquakes (blamed on Smaug -- the poor guy got blamed for everything bad...). The new info is at the end of the Elf-path entry. - Barbara P.S. In a (geographically) totally unrelated note, I also added an entry for the Elven-way from Hollin to Moria... but I suspect you haven't gotten many requests for that path...

 

Thanks Barbara. That is good to have. There is a note in the chart to check HASA Resouces for specifics and a direct link. -so if readers will follow that, they should catch any updates.

 

Thanks Barbara. You're welcome! And since I'm trying to finish off a backlog of quotes that I've accumulated; there may be a few more travel-related tidbits in the future (but I can't think of any right now). There is a note in the chart to check HASA Resouces for specifics and a direct link. -so if readers will follow that, they should catch any updates. Yes, I remember... Good idea! But if I add anything specifically travel-related, I'll also post it here, in case anyone new peruses this thread in the future. - Barbara (Ahhh, I have *such* fond memories of hanging out with you MeARA folks on this thread... )

 

Hi, it's me again! I posted a travel time question here; it's about an army traveling on foot, rather than horseback, but if anyone here has any insights to share, I would be most grateful. Thanks! - Barbara

 

Hi! Are you fine MeARA folks still taking requests? I didn't see this one in this spread sheet... The route: Framsburg (at the roots of the Anduin) to Edoras, along the east side of the Anduin, and over the Anduin at the Undeeps. In the Ride of Eorl, the éored (all experienced soldiers and horses, presumably -- and *definitely* in a hurry) took almost 10 days to cover the same route, except only to the Field of Celebrant (over the Undeeps, then up, er, north: it was listed as 500 miles, but more like 600 on the ground) -- and it was considered "a speed beyond hope". I want to estimate how long it took Eorl to lead the whole people of the Éotheód, young & old, healthy & not, using wains. Would Erin's estimate of 15 mpd work, or should I add in lots of rest days under these circumstances? I estimate that they start around September 1, and probably want to complete the journey before winter sets in hard. Is forty-five days a reasonable estimate? Sixty? Thanks for any help you can give! - Barbara

 

In the Ride of Eorl, the éored (all experienced soldiers and horses, presumably -- and *definitely* in a hurry) took almost 10 days to cover the same route, except only to the Field of Celebrant (over the Undeeps, then up, er, north: it was listed as 500 miles, but more like 600 on the ground) -- and it was considered "a speed beyond hope". I want to estimate how long it took Eorl to lead the whole people of the Éotheód, young & old, healthy & not, using wains. Would Erin's estimate of 15 mpd work, or should I add in lots of rest days under these circumstances? I estimate that they start around September 1, and probably want to complete the journey before winter sets in hard. Is forty-five days a reasonable estimate? Sixty? Greetings and hello! LOL, yes, we're still here, just maybe off playing a bit on the weekend. :-) Anywho, yes, for Eorl and his Riders to make 500 or 600 miles in 10 days was flat haulin' horse butt. They would be pretty well wiped when all was said and done, horses and men alike. For Eorl and his entire tribe ... whoof. That's tough. I'd say that 15mpd is it, tops, with hundreds of people and carts. These are of course civilians, and most of them would be unused to such arduous conditions, let alone the organization needed for such an endeavor as moving that many people. Just getting everyone out of bed, fed and on the road every morning would be a project. Plus with that many people, there's always the unexpected: someone sick, animals strayed, a broken axel, broken harness, cart horse gone lame, (or lost horse shoes) etc. So I'd think 15 mpd is max, and probably they would have to intersperse occasional layover days in between, if they are covering that same 600 mile distance. Old folks and children will wear down and need respite, something even the wagon trains of the old West had to contend with. (The pioneers would often make Sunday/the Sabbath their layover day every week, plus whatever other rest they could take along the way, when reaching places off good grass, game and water.) The good news is, in Tolkien's world the winters are generally not real severe - and this is not during the Great Winter, right? So they'll probably have well into November probably before it starts getting icky. Rain might be the worst they'd run into at first - which would be a consideration for wagons and wains, too. Anywho, so I'd make it over 45 days, maybe over 55, to allow days of rest along the way. That's my tuppence, anyhow. What say everyone else? Hey, c'mon out of that weekend, I know you're in there. Cheers ~ Erin

 

Hi, Erin! Anywho, yes, for Eorl and his Riders to make 500 or 600 miles in 10 days was flat haulin' horse butt. Actually, they got some *very* useful assistance from Galadriel's magic, so they weren't tired! see the Ride of Eorl if you're interested. (Wish she could do that for me when I go shopping...) For Eorl and his entire tribe ... whoof. That's tough. I'd say that 15mpd is it, tops, with hundreds of people and carts. Actually, it's worse than that... maybe over 10,000. Eorl sent 7000+ riders to the Battle of the Field of Celebrant, then sent half of them back home to escort all the family members back... Talking about logistical nightmares!!! (And they didn't have Blue Iris in those days...) Anywho, so I'd make it over 45 days, maybe over 55, to allow days of rest along the way. Okay, let's say *waves hand* 60 days for the initial 600 or so miles. What I left out of my initial post (details, details...) was that they have to go further than that, maybe another 4 thumbs or so (that's *waves thumb* 240 miles as the crow flies...) So, say they have to go half again as far as the initial trip. So, maybe a total of 90 days? September through November? Sounds good to me (since *I* don't have to travel with them )... This is very, very helpful, Erin, and what you said about wagon trains is fascinating... Thank you so much! - Barbara

 

Okay, I know I asked this question WAY back in May, but I've actually come to the point in my story where I'm ready to address it. I had originally asked about travel times on horseback between Thranduil's Halls and Rivendell. I am addressing only the first part of the trip from Thranduil's Halls to the Old Ford (one obstacle at a time ) The following answer was provided: Thranduil's Caverns to Laketown - 50 miles. edge of Mirkwood Follow river Celeduin to Old Forest road - 75 miles. edge of mirkwood Old Forest Road West through Mirkwood - 200 miles (spiders and nasties) Edge of Mirkwood to River Anduin - 25 miles - cross at Old Ford - terrain likely flat - still on Old Forest Road By my caculations, this is 350 miles. I can see this path, but as I examine my atlas, it seems to me that the shorter and more direct route would be to take the (Elf) Path from the Halls to the Forest Gate (by my measuring approximately 150 miles) From there, turn south, follow the Anduin past Beorn and The Carrock to the Old Ford (by my measurements approx. 100 miles) From there, you could join up wtih the Old Forest Road and head west for the Misty Mountains. This route is, by my measurements 250 miles...a full 100 miles shorter. Can someone double check my calculations here? I'm measuring with a ruler as precise as I think I can, and to me this does seem to be a shorter route. If my distance calculations are correct, is there something else I"m not considering? Any thoughts, opinions or verifications would be welcome! Thanks! Cheryl

 

Hi Cheryl, glad to see this forum getting some activity. I'm sure your calculations are correct, so without pulling the map out, I'll tell you that it may be a safety issue. You need to consider the Age and year that your Elves are traveling because there are times through history when one or the other way was virtually impassable due to Orcs, Spiders and other such nasties. I think There may be dates on the resouces entries for the Forest Path, and the Old Forest Road, I remember talking to Barbara about it. I'm just in for lunch and wanted to dash off a quicky reply for you. If you can't find the dates, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up.

 

I'll tell you that it may be a safety issue. You need to consider the Age and year that your Elves are traveling because there are times through history when one or the other way was virtually impassable due to Orcs, Spiders and other such nasties Okay, I've been browsing all the postings about this in this thread. (Leave it to me to pick the travel route that isn't cut and dry ) This trip is occuring in 2943 TA. I've seen references in the Elf Path and Forest Gate resource articles that the the Forest Road fell into disrepair on the eastern end? That was the Forest Road being refered to, wasn't it? The references also talk about the "Elf" Path being narrow and windy, but I'd think it'd be passable on horseback (at least I hope! ) RIght now, I'm leaning towards them taking the "Elf" Path, but I'd welcome anyone's debate over that...or specific reasons in canon why that wouldn't work. Sulriel, Thanks for your answer, btw Cheryl

 

 

By 2943 TA, two years after the Battle of Five Armies, the Old Forest Road could possibly have been repaired and in use again, but my guess is that it would take longer than that to get it operational again – and I don’t know that there is any indication that anyone ever did. However, I feel sure that any travelers departing from Thranduil’s Halls (especially if they were Mirkwood Elves) would use the Elf Path and not the Old Forest Road, even if it were in good repair. The only exception that comes immediately to mind might be a very large party with teams & wagons, which would require a wider road. Of course, that would not be the norm for Wood-elves. The Elf Path was made and maintained by Thranduil’s people, they kept it clear of spider webs even before Sauron left Dol Guldur. I don’t think we have any quotes to prove that it was passable on horseback, but I would guess that it was. The Elvenking’s hunting parties didn’t seem to be taking the Elf Path, but if there were other horse trails in the forest nearby, it makes sense that their primary road through he forest was also passable for those on horseback. I don’t see any canonical reasons to why your characters should take any other route than the Elf Path, and in that year, with the newly established peace, the Elves may even have built a bridge over the Enchanted Stream. Or – as suspicious as Thranduil is – maybe not! It’s something to think about anyway; the Elves had to have had a way around that obstacle. After all, a horse isn’t going to fit in that little rowboat… ;) Ithildin *(

 

Thanks Ithildin I don’t think we have any quotes to prove that it was passable on horseback, but I would guess that it was. The Elvenking’s hunting parties didn’t seem to be taking the Elf Path, but if there were other horse trails in the forest nearby, it makes sense that their primary road through he forest was also passable for those on horseback. This would be my guess too. The references that I can find to the Elf Path is that it is narrow and windy, but given the distance from Thranduil's Halls to the Forest Gate, I think it makes sense for it to be wide enough to accomodate a rider on horseback....or many riding in single file. I don’t see any canonical reasons to why your characters should take any other route than the Elf Path, and in that year, with the newly established peace, the Elves may even have built a bridge over the Enchanted Stream. Or – as suspicious as Thranduil is – maybe not! It’s something to think about anyway; the Elves had to have had a way around that obstacle. After all, a horse isn’t going to fit in that little rowboat… ;) Oh ack..that was somenting I haven't considered. LOL I'll have to think that one out. I like this route...there's all kinds of interestiing things betoween them and their eventual arrival at the Old Ford on the Anduin. Cheryl

 

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