Henneth Annûn Story Archive

Whoops, I hit Edit instead of Reply and clobbered this entry... good thing it didn't say anything except that this thread is the continuation of the thread: Resource Library Corrections (Etc.) Continued. - Barbara

 

The entry for the Song of the Mounds of Mundburg says that it is "Also indexed as, At Théoden's Death." Unfortunately, the entry for At Theoden's Death (note the misspelling) is something else. I propose to remove the "also indexed as" phrase from the SotMoM. Whether I ever get around to fixing all the misspellings, who knows? - Barbara [Edit:] Removed "Also indexed as" phrase.

 

I finally saw where the Morgul Road is in the Atlas of Middle-earth: it is the eastward extension of the road from Minas Tirith to Osgiliath. In our entries for the Crossroads and the North Road of Ithilien, we have it listed as the north-south road, not the east-west one. I'll fix it as soon as I disentangle from the Siege of Minas Tirith... - Barbara [Edit:] Done.

 

I'm going to change the spelling of "Deeping Stream" to "Deeping-stream" because of this: ... My father noted elsewhere that the Deeping-coomb (and Deeping-stream) should be so spelt, rather than Deeping Coomb, "since Deeping is not a verbal ending but one indicating relationship: the coomb or deep valley belonging to the Deep (Helm's Deep) to which it led up." (Notes on Nomenclature to assist translators, published in A Tolkien Compass, edited by Jared Lobdell, 1975, page 181.) Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Notes, Note 6 - Barbara P.S. also adding Deeping-coomb. [Edit:] Done.

 

Hi, I just managed (not sure how - Resources Admin Home is acting very strangely) to add two copies of the entry, Emblem of the Sindarin of Mithrim. There is a bug that is not allowing updates at this moment (which I am reporting), but once it is fixed, would someone please delete THID=269? (I'd rather keep 268 ). Thanks in advance... - Barbara

 

It's deleted. You should be able to do so on your own though. If you go to "Edit/Link Things", under the "Actions" column there is an option for you to delete an entry. ~Loqi

 

There IS??? You mean I've been staring at this for months now, and never noticed that? Aaaaargh! Um, thank you for deleting the Thing That Replicated Itself. I've sent a bug report to Tech Support 'cause Resources Admin Home is acting vvvvvveeeeeerrrrrrryyyyyy strangely tonight -- at least for me. Thanks, Loqi! - Barbara

 

There IS??? You mean I've been staring at this for months now, and never noticed that? Aaaaargh! *scratches head* I'm pretty sure we are using the same system, so you should have it as well. Um, thank you for deleting the Thing That Replicated Itself. You're welcome! ^^ ~Loqi

 

*scratches head* I'm pretty sure we are using the same system, so you should have it as well. Yes, the Delete option is right there. Right in front of me... Oh, dear, do I feel... dumb. Or, maybe just blind. Oh, well. I think I'll go read a Harry Potter book... can't possibly break that... - Barbara

 

[Giggle] - don't feel bad. I built the dratted thing and half the time *I* can't figure out what the features are... I'll look into why the dratted thing replicated itself. It may be as simple as a database server burp at the wrong moment. Toodles - Ang

 

I've given up Wars and Battles for the moment, and am working on Roads, using the UT Index as my guide. I'd like to make the following changes to existing entries: First, for the Great East Road entry, I want to do the following: - Rename it to the 'Great East-West Road' (with 'The (Great) East Road' and 'The Road' as synonyms). This is to compare/contrast it with the other major Númenórean road, the Great North-South Road, which I just added to the database. - Remove the references to the Old Forest Road; these appear to be two separate roads that happen to kinda sorta meet (like the North Road of Ithilien meets the Harad Road at the Crossings of Poros). (The Old Forest Road already has its own separate entry.) Second, for the Great West Road entry, I'd just like to modify the description (Location) to make clear that it is the segment of the longer Great North-South Road that runs through Rohan and Gondor (and I'll probably add a couple quotes, too). Let me know if you have any objections. - Barbara P.S. Here's one of the major quotes I'm working from: ... in those days the only Númenórean roads were the great [N-S] road linking Gondor and Arnor, ... and the East-West Road from the Grey Havens to Imladris. Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 1, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields: Notes, Note 6

 

Rename it to the 'Great East-West Road' (with 'The (Great) East Road' and 'The Road' as synonyms). This is to compare/contrast it with the other major Númenórean road, the Great North-South Road, which I just added to the database. No problem. Remove the references to the Old Forest Road; these appear to be two separate roads that happen to kinda sorta meet (like the North Road of Ithilien meets the Harad Road at the Crossings of Poros). (The Old Forest Road already has its own separate entry.) How about a simple mention of the meeting of the roads, with one of your wonderful intext links? Second, for the Great West Road entry, I'd just like to modify the description (Location) to make clear that it is the segment of the longer Great North-South Road that runs through Rohan and Gondor (and I'll probably add a couple quotes, too). No objection from me! Thanks, Elena Lyllyn

 

How about a simple mention of the meeting of the roads, with one of your wonderful intext links? Absolutely! And there was a nice juicy tidbit from HoME that I'll move to the OFR entry, as well... (Didn't have my HoME Index in those days...) And I also found an OFR quote that makes it clear that it does go to the High Pass of Rivendell... before, the only quote I had sounded vague and inconclusive. Thanks, Lyllyn! - Barbara

 

I'm planning to change the spelling of Crossroads to Cross-roads, since that is how it appears in TTT... - Barbara

 

I'm planning to change the spelling of Crossroads to Cross-roads, since that is how it appears in TTT... Sounds good to me, thanks! lyllyn

 

Hi everyone, Up to now, Bios, Places, and Events respected line breaks in the Description text, whereas Things required us to put in HTML tags (< br / > or < p >) to force line breaks (for example, to get a blank line between paragraphs). Ang fixed this problem yesterday (thank you, Ang!), but now some Things entries have double spaces where single spaces were desired between lines. So, I'm going through the entries one-by-one to fix these formatting errors. If you don't mind, I'm using cut-and-paste HTML to format verse (see Athelas Song for an example), which does the following: - indents the text, - bolds it, and [edit: we decided below not to use bold] - italicizes it. [edit: we decided below not to use italics] If you don't like this format, or don't want me to apply it to specific entries, please let me know here... otherwise, I'll just crank through the 205 entries in a suitably mindless manner. (So, what Ang's fix means is that you do not have to use HTML tags to put line breaks into the main Description area of any Resources entry; however, you still need break (< br / >) tags to force line breaks in the smaller fields, like Other Names, for example.) - Barbara (4 Things down, 201 to go...)

 

If you don't mind, I'm using cut-and-paste HTML to format verse How do you do that? *is clueless when comes to tech* If you don't like this format, or don't want me to apply it to specific entries, please let me know here The format is fine, but I'm wondering if it'll look better without the bold. (4 Things down, 201 to go...) You do know that makes me feel really guilty for having done nothing in the past few months. ~Loqi

 

If you don't mind, I'm using cut-and-paste HTML to format verse How do you do that? *is clueless when comes to tech* It's easy (remove the space after each <): Introductory text:< blockquote>< b>< i>verse line 1 verse line 2 ... last verse line.< /i>< /b>< /blockquote>Following text. The result will look like this: Introductory text:

verse line 1 verse line 2 ... last verse line.

Following text. Notice that I didn't put a line break before the < blockquote> and after the < /blockquote>, since those tags create their own line break. - Barbara

 

The format is fine, but I'm wondering if it'll look better without the bold. I added the bold since I (personally) have a hard time reading italics alone because they usually look lighter than normal text. If you don't mind, I'm hoping more people will weigh in with an opinion on the bold before I change it. Fortunately, very few of the entries are verse! So I can always go back and remove the < b> tags. (Sorry! I realize that I used the term "tag" in my last post without defining it: a tag is a formatting command in the Web language called HTML. They are all in the form: < command>text< /command> with no space after the <.) You do know that makes me feel really guilty for having done nothing in the past few months. Please don't feel guilty! I've had time recently, but that won't be the case always... - Barbara

 

Sorry! I realize that I used the term "tag" in my last post without defining it: a tag is a formatting command in the Web language called HTML. Ahh... I see. That might be what confused me as I do know how to do some basic functions in HTML. Thanks for elaborating! I added the bold since I (personally) have a hard time reading italics alone because they usually look lighter than normal text. If you don't mind, I'm hoping more people will weigh in with an opinion on the bold before I change it. To tell the truth, I really don't mind whether it's bold or not. It just stands out too much for me, but I guess standing out is the point of changing it's style. ~Loqi

 

Thanks for elaborating! You're welcome! Sorry that I accidentally slipped into jargon... It just stands out too much for me, but I guess standing out is the point of changing it's style. Actually, I agree with you: the bold *is* too dark for my taste; however, the italics alone are too light... and the "too light", to me, is harder to read than the "too dark" (despite the additional dislike of bold on aesthetic grounds). I hope that last paragraph came close to making sense ... I find the (US) election has been essentially frying my brain... - Barbara

 

I hope that last paragraph came close to making sense ... I find the (US) election has been essentially frying my brain... It made perfect sense. In fact it made more sense than my explaination. Yeah, the election is pretty heated, I could feel it from all the way across the border. ~Loqi

 

I'm back from my trip and finally catching up - sorry for the delay. And thanks for taking this on to fix, Barbara (tips metaphorical hat). I can live with the bold, but I found it a bit much. I thought using the block quotes indent without italic or bold might be enough by itself. I'm going to put it below to see what it looks like - what do you think? ‘Your pardon lord!’ said the man. ‘I see you are a lore-master, not merely a captain of war. But alas! sir, we do not keep this thing in the Houses of Healing, where only the gravely hurt or sick are tended. For it has no virtue that we know of, save perhaps to sweeten a fouled air, or to drive away some passing heaviness. Unless, of course, you give heed to rhymes of old days which women such as our good Ioreth still repeat without understanding.

When the black breath blows and death’s shadow grows and all lights pass, come athelas! come athelas! Life to the dying In the king’s hand lying!

It is but a doggrel, I fear, garbled in the memory of old wives. Its meaning I leave to your judgement, if indeed it has any. But old folk still use an infusion of the herb for headaches.’ Lyllyn

 

I thought using the block quotes indent without italic or bold might be enough by itself. I can live with that. Loqi, how about you? - Barbara

 

I thought using the block quotes indent without italic or bold might be enough by itself. Works for me. ~Loqi

 

Okay, I'll use simple block quotes, without bold or italic, for verse. But at the rate I'm going (I haven't got past 'A'), this is going to take a while... - Barbara, who wishes that athelas were real and that she could smoke use some right now...

 

So, why does every simple little change turn into a big deal in Resources? *sigh* I added a new name, The Hallowed Mountain, to the Meneltarma entry, and expanded its Location field a bit. But when I read the description (researcher commentary), I noticed a couple of problems. First, there are no quotes (oh, the horror! ) and second, it explicitly states that there is no temple on Meneltarma, which I disagree with, having just created an entry for the Hallow of Eru. So, at the very least, I'd like to change edit: delete the phrase about no temple... Question: if I dig up enough quotes to cover all of the really good information included in the researcher commentary, would there be any objection to replacing the commentary entirely by the quotes? If your answer is "no", I'll just be satisfied at adding the one quote that I already have... (plus deleting the "no temple" phrase, of course -- I did already add a mention of the Hallow of Eru to the Location field). - Barbara

 

if I dig up enough quotes to cover all of the really good information included in the researcher commentary, would there be any objection to replacing the commentary entirely by the quotes? I will be grateful if you would! That was a very early entry, and I think our standards have evolved considerably. Thanks, Lyllyn

 

I will be grateful if you would! That was a very early entry, and I think our standards have evolved considerably. Okay, will do. Actually, now that I've read the UT passage that it was based upon, it is, in fact, an accurate summary of the UT quote. The difference is that I had read the Silmarillion first, which does seem to call the Hallow of Eru a temple, despite being an open-air one. Edit: I'll treat the Silm quote as more canonical. Ah, the joys of Tolkien textual comparisons... : - Barbara

 

...it explicitly states that there is no temple on Meneltarma, which I disagree with, having just created an entry for the Hallow of Eru.

I think the original entry may have been intended to indicate that there was no man-made temple on the Meneltarma, Technically the entry isn't wrong; according to this passage in UT, it's clear that the Hallow was a natural structure:

Near to the centre of the Mittalmar stood the tall mountain called the Meneltarma, Pillar of the Heavens, sacred to the worship of Eru Ilúvatar. Though the lower slopes of the mountain were gentle and grass-covered, it grew ever steeper, and towards the summit it could not be scaled; but a winding spiral road was made upon it, beginning at its foot upon the south, and ending below the lip of the summit upon the north. For the summit was somewhat flattened and depressed, and could contain a great multitude; but it remained untouched by hands throughout the history of Númenor. No building, no raised altar, not even a pile of undressed stones, ever stood there; and no other likeness of a temple did the Númenóreans possess in all the days of their grace, until the coming of Sauron. _{*emphasis mine} (UT: Part Two - The Second Age: I - A Description of the Island of Númenor)

This quote ought to at least go in the entry for the Meneltarma, if not for the Hallow itself (though it is describing the Hallow on the summit of the Meneltarma, even though Tolkien doesn't use that specific word in this passage). ~Nessime Addendum: Oops! Missed your follow-up post - obviously you've seen this passage.

 

I think the original entry may have been intended to indicate that there was no man-made temple on the Meneltarma, Technically the entry isn't wrong; according to this passage in UT, it's clear that the Hallow was a natural structure: According to my dictionary (emphasis mine), a temple is "an edifice or place dedicated to the service or worship of a deity or deities." The original entry would have been precisely correct to say no *building*, but as the Silmarillion makes explicit (whereas it was merely implied in UT), the hallowed spot was indeed considered a temple (again, emphasis mine): ... upon [Meneltarma] was a high place that was hallowed to Eru Ilúvatar, and it was open and unroofed, and no other temple or fane was there in the land of the Númenóreans. The Silmarillion, Akallabêth I believe that I have been able to meld the best of both the Silm and UT quotes in the new entry: Meneltarma. Let me know what you think. And yes, I will definitely add some of the lovely UT quotes to the Hallow of Eru entry; will work on that next. Edit: Done. Feedback welcome! There's obviously a lot of overlap between the two entries... - Barbara

 

I am very impressed. A beautiful and useful entry! Wow! Yours Juno

 

I am very impressed. A beautiful and useful entry! Wow, thank you, Juno! I usually strive for "accurate", but "beautiful" and "useful" are definitely icing on the cake! - Barbara

 

I usually strive for "accurate", but "beautiful" and "useful" are definitely icing on the cake! That's one of the things I appreciate about you. BTW I think the addition of the quote from UT helps. You must know that I'm not one of those who is against any reference to "religion" in M-e, so my concern that Tolkien's use of the word "temple" be clarified isn't about that. But for many people - and this is borne out in the majority of dictionaries I referenced - the word carries the strong connotation of a man-made structure, which according to the quote in UT is clearly not the case. Tolkien obviously had a deeper understanding of the word and its meaning. ~Nessime PS - I must learn how to do those footnote links. Those are very helpful, and make the entries look neatly organized.

 

That's one of the things I appreciate about you. Thanks, Nessime! I think you cured me rather quickly of trying to paraphrase Tolkien , so I like to let his quotes speak for themselves... BTW I think the addition of the quote from UT helps. Thanks... I think that the two quotes together paint an accurate picture. If I had read the UT quote alone, without seeing the Silm quote first, I would not have noticed that the summit was considered a temple. (But Tolkien makes quite a big deal about there not being any other temple until Sauron corrupts the Númenóreans... and the differences between the two temples could not be more stark, in terms of construction as well as "worship" practices...) PS - I must learn how to do those footnote links. Those are very helpful, and make the entries look neatly organized. Your wish is (occasionally) my command: you can find the template in the Numbered and Hyperlinked Footnotes post in the Preferred Practices in Resources thread (which was formerly called Useful Tools and Templates). - Barbara

 

Your wish is (occasionally) my command:... Thank you! I particulary enjoyed the "sample" entry: Blah blah blah¹ blahdy blahdy blahdy² and so on and so on ad nauseum³... ~N

 

Thank you! I particulary enjoyed the "sample" entry: Blah blah blah¹ blahdy blahdy blahdy² and so on and so on ad nauseum³... LOL! Occasionally my eloquence astounds me... - Barbara

 

Hi, I may be having a problem finding this entry because I'm tired and cranky and all those Tar-names are beginning to look alike... If you do a search on "Tar-Calmacil", you find an entry called "Tar-Calmacil born", but if you click on it, you get a date error. I would like to rename this entry to "Tar-Calmacil of Númenor born" and correct the problem with the (second?) date, BUT... I can't *find* the entry when I try to do an Edit/Link Entry! (Feeling slightly stupid at the moment...) I can't find it under "T", under "C", under any slice of the Second Age (should be 2516 SA according to UT, which is "SA-Rings"), or under any of the obvious event types. Could someone please help me find it and fix it? Like I say, I hope it's really staring me right in the face... which is a more comforting explanation than that it is a ghost entry... or that I'm hallucinating (can you get high from watching a Grateful Dead concert on TV? Seems like one of those technical details that would have to be worked out if Smellovision is ever invented...) - Barbara, who really should just go to bed... I'm sure the dancing pink oliphaunts will all go away tomorrow... (Did we ever discuss the idea of having a "Fix me" button available to those with Resources Admin capability when just viewing an entry?)

 

I can't find it either, Barbara. I've forwarded the problem and error message to Ang. I'm glad you spotted this! Lyllyn

 

Ang has fixed it, and I can now see it both from the admin area, and the member side. All hail Ang! Lyllyn

 

Excellent! (I sent Ang my thanks already...) I'll fix the title... - Barbara

 

It's an older entry, and I think slipped under the radar during early tests. A few fields were blank which shouldn't have been, making it impossible to display. We'll fix these things over the course of the Resources upgrade this spring & summer. Toodles - Ang

 

A few fields were blank which shouldn't have been, making it impossible to display. Yes, I noticed the Description was blank... I added a quote for good measure, as well as renaming it to our current naming standards. Thanks for fixing this so quickly, Ang! - Barbara

 

Want to know irony? I'm currently working on a scene with a character named, you guessed it, Calmacil. He's the second in command at Cair Adros. [Everyone breaks into a chorus of "It's a Small World"] Toodles - Ang

 

Test of forum posts. Just a test.

 

Hi Barbara I've been doing some work on filling in timeline events for Gondor, and had a query about your entry for Ciryaher Becomes King Hyarmendacil I of Gondor in 1015. This cropped up because I was entering Ciryaher of Gondor conquers the Harad and takes the title Hyarmendacil. in 1050 Now, my understanding is that Ciryaher didn't become King Hyarmendacil I of Gondor in 1015. Instead, he became King Ciryaher of Gondor in 1015, and only took the title of Hyarmendacil after conquering the Haradrim in 1050. if you agree, would you consider revising the title of your entry (and maybe the quotes you use)? If you don't agree, lets debate it! Cheers, Liz (Edit: oops, fixed some very messed up hyperlinks...)

 

Curses, foiled again! Er, that is... Now, my understanding is that Ciryaher didn't become King Hyarmendacil I of Gondor in 1015. Instead, he became King Ciryaher of Gondor in 1015, and only took the title of Hyarmendacil after conquering the Haradrim in 1050. Yes, you're right as usual, blast it all -- bet she outscored Hermione Granger in school... . One of the things I've been trying to do with the standardized event titles for ascensions is to associate the birth name with the ruling name, because I get so terribly confused when one person is mentioned multiple ways which Tolkien just loves to do... terribly inconsiderate of him. I wasn't sure what to do with that one, so I just did the usual, and tried to keep on adding entries before I ran out of steam because occasionally quantity trumps quality, oh yess it doess, precioussss . What I'd like to do is keep both names in the title, but somehow make it clearer that the ruling name came later. Off the top of my head which currently makes the world tilt every time it moves because of an ear infection -- stupid, fat headses, I can think of two possibilities: Keep the title the same, but put a note at the top of the entry that he didn't take the ruling name until later (the info is there now, but buried in a quote...). Or, change the title to something like "Ciryaher becomes King of Gondor (later called Hyarmendacil I)". Or, do you have other suggestions? - Barbara P.S. Putting in Gondor events better you than me!? Would you like my tidbits file for the War with Harad and Umbar I wanted to see if this was the same war you were talking about, but couldn't make heads nor tails of the quotes -- stupid fat head? And my list of the Kings of Gondor with all their genealogical links?

 

blast it all -- bet she outscored Hermione Granger in school... . Yep, I was definitely the snotty, swotty type. One of the things I've been trying to do with the standardized event titles for ascensions is to associate the birth name with the ruling name Sure. I thought there was probably some kind of reasoning like that behind it all. What I'd like to do is keep both names in the title, but somehow make it clearer that the ruling name came later. [...] Keep the title the same, but put a note at the top of the entry that he didn't take the ruling name until later (the info is there now, but buried in a quote...). Or, change the title to something like "Ciryaher becomes King of Gondor (later called Hyarmendacil I)". How about "Ciryaher (later Hyarmendacil I) becomes King of Gondor"? And sorry to hear about the ear infection. Hope you feel better soon P.S. Putting in Gondor events better you than me!? Would you like my tidbits file for the War with Harad and Umbar I wanted to see if this was the same war you were talking about, but couldn't make heads nor tails of the quotes -- stupid fat head? And my list of the Kings of Gondor with all their genealogical links? Well, the Gondor events are sort of a by-product of doing the Gondorians bio. (Btw, I did ask for feedback over in this post.) Although some wonderful person has done major chunks of entries for kinstrife and Cirion and Eorl that I can shamelessly steal. But, sure, the tidbits file sounds a good idea, so, please, send away. Cheers, Liz

 

How about "Ciryaher (later Hyarmendacil I) becomes King of Gondor"? Excellent. I've changed the entry. And sorry to hear about the ear infection. Hope you feel better soon Thanks, Liz! Well, the Gondor events are sort of a by-product of doing the Gondorians bio. After a second look, the tidbits file I sent you was for the War with Harad and Umbar in 1540, where King Aldamir was slain. If you want to enter it for the Gondorians entry, fine... if not, I'll get around to it someday... And I'll try to look at the Gondorians entry in the next couple of days. Sorry it's taking so long... Although some wonderful person has done major chunks of entries for kinstrife and Cirion and Eorl that I can shamelessly steal. I just love leveraging off of the work of others... only fair for it to go both ways... We're just lucky that there's so much overlap between events involving the Rohirrim/Éothéod/Northmen and events involving the Gondorians! - Barbara

 

Hi everyone, I was trying to do a quick-and-dirty (yeah, right...) entry for Belecthor II , Steward of Gondor, dies, and noticed an error in the RoTK Tale of Years: 2852 [incorrect, should be 2872] Belecthor II of Gondor dies. The White Tree dies, and no seedling can be found. The Dead Tree is left standing. The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix B, The Tale of Years: The Third Age The correction is noted (fortunately!) in PoME: The date of the death of the Steward Belecthor II in all three texts of The Heirs of Elendil is 2872. The date 2852 in the later typescripts of the Tale of Years and in Appendix B is evidently a casual error. The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 8, The Tale of Years of the Third Age: Notes, Note 38 Lyllyn, this affects the date of your entry The White Tree dies and is not replanted, and it affects the text in my entry for the White Tree of Gondor. I will correct both of them in the next few days. Let me know if you notice any other entries that might be affected by this. - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara Let me know if you notice any other entries that might be affected by this. This is also highly relevant to the timeline in my Gondorians bio, so thanks for spotting it and flagging it up! As I'll be looking through that part of the timeline fairly closely when I get to it, I'll let you know if I spot anything else it affects. Cheers, Liz

 

Please continue this thread in the Queries about Resource Library Entries thread in the Workshop forum. - Barbara

 

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