Henneth Annûn Story Archive

The original thread was getting a bit long (making it a bit slow for those with dial-up connections), so I'm taking the opportunity to start a new one. Barbara, I've added a couple of those quotes to Shelob's bio, as mentioned in my last e-mail, and have linked it (via the side bar) to the bios of Sauron, Frodo and Sam (Ungoliant's was already linked). ~Nessime

 

Good idea, Nessime, starting a new thread! Glad to see the quotes in Shelob's entry. Was there a reason that you indented them like blockquotes? Still working on the new and improved Giant Spiders ... but added a spin-off to Things: The Unlight of Ungoliant. Obviously didn't duck your nuzgûl fast enough... - Barbara

 

A new potential project, but not one that I can do right now, at least all at once: I noticed that Fëanor was misspelled Feänor in a few entries (including his bio), and corrected them. But there's still the problem of it being spelled Feanor in many entries, not to mention Finwe and others. Since this is a reference database, I believe the spellings should be correct (with diacriticals), even if people choose not to use the diacriticals in their stories. Question 1 : Is going through the entries and fixing them all worth it? (It's probably something that I could do little bits of when I'm in a particularly foul mood...) Question 2: I do not add my name or the date to the Contributors section if all I'm doing is correcting a typo or three. I see no reason whatsoever to point out that there was an error to be fixed. Is that okay with you guys? - Barbara

 

I noticed that Fëanor was misspelled Feänor in a few entries (including his bio), and corrected them. Thank you! But there's still the problem of it being spelled Feanor in many entries, not to mention Finwe and others. Since this is a reference database, I believe the spellings should be correct (with diacriticals), even if people choose not to use the diacriticals in their stories. Question 1 : Is going through the entries and fixing them all worth it? (It's probably something that I could do little bits of when I'm in a particularly foul mood...) I don't know if it's worth it, althought there isn't any reason not to. The one question we've never really resolved is in the title, since the text search will only find exactly what's put in: Fëanor but not Feanor, unless people use F?anor for the search. Question 2: I do not add my name or the date to the Contributors section if all I'm doing is correcting a typo or three. I see no reason whatsoever to point out that there was an error to be fixed. Is that okay with you guys? I do it the same way - sounds good. Lyllyn

 

Was there a reason that you indented them like blockquotes?

If there are large blocks of text it can all start to run together, so I started trying it this way. I think it differentiates the quoted passages more distinctly from headers, commentary, etc.

Obviously didn't duck your nuzgûl fast enough...

Yes! _{*sound bite of evil chuckle*} ~Nessime

 

If there are large blocks of text it can all start to run together Speaking of large blocks of text that have most assuredly started to run together in my feeble mind and my crossed eyes, here's the final second draft of Giant Spiders. Please be kind... it's my first book. - Barbara

 

Barbara puts her hands around her mouth and yells: "Heeeelllloooo!" Putting her hands to her ears, she hears a faint echo coming from the abyss: "Heeeelllloooo o o o o o o o o o o o o o." She yells again: "Is anyone home?" And hears a louder echo: "No o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o!" Crossing her arms and tapping her foot, she yells: "I added an editorial comment to the end of the Giant Spiders entry. Would you tell me what you think? Please?" And hears very loud groans, and what sounds like a herd of lemmings tossing themselves into the abyss to escape a giant spider...

 

Crossing her arms and tapping her foot, she yells: "I added an editorial comment to the end of the Giant Spiders entry. Would you tell me what you think? Please?" And hears very loud groans, and what sounds like a herd of lemmings tossing themselves into the abyss to escape a giant spider... Thinking that the next time I have a hankering to write something terribly morbid and dark and abstract, I am going right back to that reference article to play with the possibilities of unlight and despair and spider imagery... how very broken and Surrealist and Dada! I love it B. Iris

 

how very broken and Surrealist and Dada! I love it B. Iris *beaming* Why, thank you, Blue Iris! *puzzled frown* I think... - Barbara P.S. Please don't tell Nessime and Lyllyn. They thought my first draft was "too editorial"... I'm not entirely sure that they'll consider broken and Surrealist and Dada to be an improvement. *Whines* But *I* didn't write it, Tolkien did! *Points finger* Blame him! He's the one! It's his fault!

 

P.S. Please don't tell Nessime and Lyllyn...

Heh, heh... This is why I love the HASA forums alert e-mail feature - *Thanks Ang

*Whines* But *I* didn't write it, Tolkien did! *Points finger* Blame him! He's the one! It's his fault!

May I make one teensy suggestion? The header is, A Personal Note; it would be perfectly clear that it's not [your] fault if it read, A Personal Note from Tolkien (or something to that effect). Whether Surrealist or Dada, if JRRT wrote it, and it relates to the subject [in this case spiders - giant or otherwise], I have no objection to its inclusion. So cease your whining or I shall sic another resource nuzgûl on you... *oh, heck - I'd do that anyway...* ~Nessime

 

I confess to being late. I'll second Nessime - Anything JRRT wrote is fair game. And I shall sic resource!nuzguls on you no matter what, but I suspect you don't really need it. You have become perfectly self-siccing! Lyllyn

 

*puzzled frown* I think... - Barbara P.S. Please don't tell Nessime and Lyllyn. They thought my first draft was "too editorial"... I'm not entirely sure that they'll consider broken and Surrealist and Dada to be an improvement. *Whines* But *I* didn't write it, Tolkien did! *Points finger* Blame him! He's the one! It's his fault! (pats Barbard on the head reassuringly) Barbara, Do not fear Nessime and Lyllyn; I meant all the above in a very good way, as artistic inspiration. All the stuff that was included was so juicy sweet in such a sharp edgy way. Suffice to say about "broken" that the article helped me better understand the part of spiders in the brokenness of Arda. For the other two I can't currently see writing spiderfic (which is an eventuality given your article) outside of surrealistic/dadaist/cubist type prose/poetry which would likely be sort of dark and wierd and disjointed.

 

All the stuff that was included was so juicy sweet in such a sharp edgy way. You have a real way with words, Blue! For the other two I can't currently see writing spiderfic (which is an eventuality given your article) outside of surrealistic/dadaist/cubist type prose/poetry which would likely be sort of dark and wierd and disjointed. Considering the source of that remark (you): I'm afraid. I'm very, very afraid... - Barbara

 

Heh, heh... This is why I love the HASA forums alert e-mail feature - *Thanks Ang Good heavens! You don't get a new message every single time I go back and edit a new post, do you? That could mean 5 or 6 messages before I get it right...

 

May I make one teensy suggestion? Nessime, just because it's you, you can make a big suggestion. Oh, wait... *Barbara remembers just why she spent the last week rewriting the entry for Giant Spiders, which was never on her top ten list of interesting topics...* The header is, A Personal Note; it would be perfectly clear that it's not [your] fault if it read, A Personal Note from Tolkien... Done. (But the original heading caught your attention, didn't it? ) if JRRT wrote it, and it relates to the subject [in this case spiders - giant or otherwise], I have no objection to its inclusion. Oh, and I also separated Lesser Breeds into The Giant Spiders of Mirkwood, and Ordinary Spiders. I know it's kinda silly to have a quote about ordinary-sized spiders in a Giant Spiders entry, but I thought it was important to point out that not all spiders in ME were giant, foul-mouthed, and Man/Elf/Hobbit/Dwarf/Orc-eating... and it's too puny a quote (and too boring, compared to their more glamorous kindred) to deserve its own entry. So cease your whining or I shall sic another resource nuzgûl on you... *oh, heck - I'd do that anyway...* There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep recesses of this Web site... - Barbara

 

And I shall sic resource!nuzguls on you no matter what, but I suspect you don't really need it. You have become perfectly self-siccing! Sigh. I'm hopeless... - Barbara P.S. Thanks for creating the Minas Morgul entry... I've linked it to a couple other entries already... (Edit: ) And my HoME Index just arrived, and I went out and bought the Letters...

 

I have a question about Sméagol/Gollum and Déagol the Stoor. They are often referred to as cousins, including in our entry for Gollum. But the story of Déagol finding the ring calls him a "friend" of Gollum. Am I missing a reference somewhere else in canon? If not, I'll correct the Gollum entry. - Barbara

 

Am I missing a reference somewhere else in canon?

If you are, then so am I. In LotR: Shadow of the Past, Gandalf says to Frodo:

...He [i.e. Gollum/Sméagol] had a friend called Déagol, of similar sort, sharper-eyed but not so quick and strong...

No mention anywhere in LotR that I can find of their having been cousins. In HoM-e 7:The Treason of Isengard: Chapter II: The Fourth Phase (1): From Hobbiton to Bree (p. 23 of the Houghton-Mifflin trade paperback edition), Christopher Tolkien noted:

Before the new version of the chapter was completed, however (see note 12), my father changed Gollum's original name from Dígol (through Deagol) to Smeagol, and introduced a rider telling the story of Deagol and his murder: He had a friend called Deagol, of similar short, sharper-eyed but not so quick and strong...

Note: in the Index of HoM-e 7 Deagol is specifically identified as Gollum's friend. I've found nothing else in HoM-e that suggests he was anything other than a friend. I'm not sure where the "cousin" identification came from, but unless/until someone can point to a canonical reference, it should be removed from Gollum's bio. Good catch. ~Nessime

 

They are often referred to as cousins, including in our entry for Gollum. Fanon creeps in everywhere, it does, preciousss. I also can't find any descriptor other than 'friend'. I did, however, find some nifty etymology: "Smeagol and Deagol are thus Old English equivalents for actual Trahand and Nuhund 'apt to creep into a hole' and 'apt to hide, secretive' respectively. (Smaug, the Dragon's name, is a representation in similar terms, in this case of a more Scandinavian character, of the Dale name Tragu, which was probably related to the trah- stem in the Mark and Shire.) PoMe, The Appendix on Languages, The Languages at the end of the Third Age, #57 Hm, maybe we ought to put a bio on Déagol in the Hobbits - minor characters article? Lyllyn

 

Hm, maybe we ought to put a bio on Déagol in the Hobbits - minor characters article?

I was thinking along the same lines. I love all the bits of etymology that can be found in the various texts. ~Nessime

 

No mention anywhere in LotR that I can find of their having been cousins. Same here... and it's not like I didn't look... imagine how sweet that would be in my Genealogies? (Family ties, we wantsss them, yesss, my Precioussss...) I'm not sure where the "cousin" identification came from, but unless/until someone can point to a canonical reference, it should be removed from Gollum's bio. I'll fix Gollum. I saw the same error in The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, and shrugged -- it's certainly not the first error I've found in that book. But when I found it in our Reference Library... Good catch. Thank you! - Barbara

 

Smeagol and Deagol are thus Old English equivalents for actual Trahand and Nuhund 'apt to creep into a hole' and 'apt to hide, secretive' respectively. Um, you mean Nahand, right? (Edit: I changed the Gollum entry...) - Barbara

 

I have a question about Sméagol/Gollum and Déagol the Stoor. They are often referred to as cousins, including in our entry for Gollum. But the story of Déagol finding the ring calls him a "friend" of Gollum. Am I missing a reference somewhere else in canon? I think Déagol being Sméagol's cousin is movie!canon. ~Loqi

 

I think Déagol being Sméagol's cousin is movie!canon. Did they use the word cousin there? Certainly could be... but The Complete Guide to ME book predates the movies by a lot... maybe that's where PJ got it? - Barbara, who cringes at all the errors she finds in Foster's Genealogies alone... poor guy, if I were him I'd be mortified (and then I'd fire the publisher).

 

Um, you mean Nahand, right? The perils of working from the digital copy. I checked the book itself, and you are 100% right. Off to edit (a never-ending process) the digital. Thanks, Lyllyn

 

In the "Brandybuck of Buckland" Family Tree in the Appendix C of RoTK, Marmadoc Brandybuck and Adaldrida Bolger have 4 children: Gorbadoc, (Two daughters), and Orgulas. In the Gorbadoc Brandybuck bio, his sisters' names are listed as 'Adalda' and 'Marmalda'. Does anyone have any idea where these names come from? They're not in the Family Trees from Peoples of Middle-earth, so I have no clue where they're from... If they are canon, I'd love to give names to Gorby's sisters in my Genealogies... - Barbara (I'm a little worried because I had to make several corrections to Gorbadoc's wife Mirabella's bio already.)

 

I don't know where this came from. Perhaps you should email the person who entered it? I was sent a PDF genealogy which has the same information, but it doesn't cite the source. Arghh. Lyllyn

 

I don't know where this came from. Perhaps you should email the person who entered it?

I was thinking the same thing; I haven't found anything in canon that gives those names. If they're hiding somewhere in Tolkien's extended writings, I'd really like to know. ~Nessime

 

Someone could ask on the HA list, that might smoke out a Hobbit expert or two... Or Ang, if you're reading this, I know you've researched hobbit genealogy - any information for us? Lyllyn

 

I just posted a call for Hobbit genealogists at HA, so hopefully we'll get some help in solving this family tree mystery. ~Nessime

 

Thanks, Nessime.... Doesn't look like anyone's responded... I've been too busy to deal with this. - Barbara

 

Just noticed that we have duplicate Bio entries: Aldarion and Tar-Aldarion. Didn't read them to see if they're similar... what do you want to do about it? Is there any preference of using the Ar-/Tar- name over the other name? They do both show up in the search, fortunately... - Barbara

 

Question about Thing types: I've been adding a lot of entries recently for books (mostly because it's so impressive that someone has written a book (even a fictional book by a fictional character ), that I want to recognize that authorial contribution in their Bio... have already done this in the Genealogies, thought it would be nice to have in the Resource Library, too.) I've been (mostly) calling them 'Artifacts', because I tend to think of them as tangible items that reside in a library somewhere... But there is another category called 'Songs & Stories', which I tend to think of as being for (primarily) oral works. I'd like to suggest adding a new category: 'Books & Scrolls' (or 'Books & Documents', if you prefer) to cover written works, as opposed to verbal works. (The Scroll of Isildur is an obvious candidate, for example...) What do you think? And, in the meantime, should I continue to use 'Artifacts', or switch to 'Songs & Stories'? (For example, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen could be considered a Story, unless you make the distinction that I did of oral vs written...) - Barbara These are the books I've added recently: The Red Book The Thain's Book - Annotated Copy of the Red Book Findegil's Copy of the Thain's Book Akallabêth Herblore of the Shire Old Words and Names in the Shire Reckoning of Years Translations from the Elvish The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen The Tale of Years

 

Smeagol and Deagol are thus Old English equivalents for actual Trahand and Nuhund 'apt to creep into a hole' and 'apt to hide, secretive' respectively. I wondered why the names I had put into the Genealogies were 'Nahald' and 'Trahald' instead of 'Nahand' and 'Trahand'. Now I know why! This is the final version of the etymology in the RoTK Appendix F: Sméagol and Déagol are equivalents made up in the same way for the names Trahald 'burrowing, worming in', and Nahald 'secret' in the Northern tongues. - Barbara (Edit: ) Changed Trahand to Trahald in the Gollum entry, & added its meaning. (Edit 2: ) Come to think of it, I think I've seen a possible etymology for 'Gollum'... will see if I can dig it up...

 

... in the meantime, should I continue to use 'Artifacts', or switch to 'Songs & Stories'? (For example, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen could be considered a Story, unless you make the distinction that I did of oral vs written...) I'd leave it at artifacts for now, which is where I'd think to look for it. There's likely to be some changes coming up to Resources, so I'll put that on the list. Lyllyn

 

I'd think Aldarion is the natural place to look - what do others think? It's difficult though, because most people will also look under Ar-Pharazon rather than Pharazon. Lyllyn

 

Ooops. That would be my mistake. We discovered the dulicate a while back and discussed their fate in Add this to a character bio!. "Aldarion" should've been deleted a long time ago. ~Loqi Edited: "Aldarion" is deleted.

 

Thanks, Loqi! - Barbara *Blush* and I saw that thread, too... even posted to it. *Very* short attention span and *extremely* bad memory...

 

*Blush* and I saw that thread, too... even posted to it. *Very* short attention span and *extremely* bad memory... I blush with you, I couldn't remember what we decided and didn't have time to go back and look today. Lyllyn

 

Hi Lyllyn, Months ago I promised you a revised version of Notes on the Lineage of The House of Eorl... I incorporated the last few stray quotes last night and put it into beta for review (it's not ready to publish yet; I want to add links to it). I'd really appreciate it if you (or anybody else interested!) would look at it and give me feedback, in particular about the logic... Is it persuasive? Do the conclusions seem reasonable based upon the quotes and the assumptions stated? Am I relying on other assumptions without making them explicit? (Edit: ) Is is clear enough which parts are quotes and which parts are my writing? Does it need more of an introduction? And also, do you think it is necessary to add a quote to show that Fram is the son of Frumgar? All the other sons have, for various unrelated reasons, explicit quotes... Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have! - Barbara

 

Barbara, I'm looking forward to reading it again. I wanted to let you know I won't get to several Resource articles I need to check until after next week at the earliest. I apologize for the delay. Unless Nessime gets to it first, I will return comments as soon as I can. lyllyn

 

Hi Lyllyn! No rush! (Especially after I kept you waiting so long ) I'll welcome your comments whenever you can make them, and meanwhile will put in the links... - Barbara

 

I skimmed the article and found it good and sound. I like how you stated the proofs, what we know, then the logical deduction. The family tree gives a nice conclusion. And also, do you think it is necessary to add a quote to show that Fram is the son of Frumgar? Yes, there was no mentioning of Fram anywhere in your article. I was a bit confused by the extra name in the tree. ~Loqi

 

I skimmed the article and found it good and sound. I like how you stated the proofs, what we know, then the logical deduction. The family tree gives a nice conclusion. Thanks, Loqi! Yes, there was no mentioning of Fram anywhere in your article. I was a bit confused by the extra name in the tree. I'll add a quote... he's the guy who slew Scatha the Worm, and got knocked off by the Dwarves for his impudence... ~Loqi I appreciate your help! - Barbara

 

A teensy nitpick:

The forefathers of Eorl were descended from the Kings of Rhovanion.

What Tolkien wrote was that [the] forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from the kings of Rhovanion... I don't think that connection is ever stated as fact. Otherwise I think you've qualified any deductions or assumptions quite well, citing the passages that have led to the same. All in all, nicely done. ~Nessime PS added: I'm not suggesting taking the Kings of Rhovanion out of the tree; the connection is probable based on what Tolkien wrote. I simply think the statement in the text should carry that qualification. ~N. PPS - Scratch what I said. I completely forgot that the direct quote from UT stating that Marhari was descended from Vidugavia would make the descent of the House of Eorl from the kings of Rhovanion more certain - unless there is any doubt about Eorl's descent from Marhari. That is still based on assumption, yes? So it could still be a fair statement that the forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from the kings of Rhovanion. *Oh, do I wish Tolkien hadn't worded it that way.* Am I being too nitpicky?

 

All in all, nicely done. ~Nessime Thank you, Nessime! I appreciate you taking a look at this and giving me feedback... Yes, I relied on the "Marhari (a descendant of Vidugavia)" quote to make the statement that "The forefathers of Eorl were descended from the Kings of Rhovanion." Marhari's son Mahrwini founded the Éothéod, which we know to be the direct antecedents of the Rohirrim. But the "forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from the kings of Rhovanion" quote also helps to make a connection between the first Lord of the Éothéod, Mahrwini, whom we know is descended from Vidugavia, and the later ones, Léod and his son Eorl. That quote, along with the explicit assumption that the lordship of the Éothéod is hereditary, helps to establish the probability of descent from Mahrwini to Eorl. *Sigh* If Tolkien were more explicit, this whole essay wouldn't even be necessary... Am I being too nitpicky? In your role as Resources maven, you can't be too careful... and I don't mind defending my work. That's why I wave a red flag to attract attention in this particular thread... And I'm *beginning* to recover from my pout over removing "Oh, what a tangled web we weave..."

 

Hmmm, it is also possible that Tolkien used the phrase "claimed descent" simply because the Rohirrim transmit history verbally, rather than in writing... "... wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years." TTT, The Riders of Rohan Genealogists, I believe, do make such a distinction (much like Resource Managers...); they would use "trace descent" instead of "claim descent" if it were written down. Unfortunately, when dealing with bardic societies, verbal is the best you're going to get... - Barbara

 

Genealogists, I believe, do make such a distinction (much like Resource Managers...)

And don't forget that I am doubly cursed in being the child of genealogists. ~Nessime

 

LOL! Think of it as a blessing... if you tell yourself that long enough, you might begin to believe it... - Barbara

 

Remember my Giant Spiders entry, the one that's so big it needs a Table of Contents? I just figured out how to link within a document, so I made the TOC linked... and the nice side benefit is that the subheadings that I linked to now are colored blue (the color of unfollowed links in my browser). Thought I'd share my glee... - Barbara The HTML (replace '[' by '<'): [a href="#Label">Text to link FROM[/a> [a name="Label">Text to link TO[/a>

 

Can one of you delete a Places entry? I somehow missed that there was already a 'Hall of Fire' entry and added a 'Hall of Fire, The' entry. I believe I've made both of them identical (even made the new one sort under 'F' instead of 'H') so whichever one you choose to delete is fine... Thanks! - Barbara

 

Barbara, I didn't see an entry under H, but there were two listed under F: Hall of Fire and Hall of Fire, The. Since the exact name of the place is The Hall of Fire, that's the one I left. Am I correct that that is the one you entered? I ask because now a text search for "Hall of Fire" returns it on the list (without "The"), but when I click on the link I get a blank entry - which I do seem to recall happens until the program catches up with changes. Ergo I'm assuming the reverse; that the new entry won't showing up immediately. I just want to be certain I have it all straight. ~Nessime

 

Hi Nessime! Thank you! Yes, you deleted the old one, so the search behavior sounds right (for the moment)... I had changed the 'H' to an 'F' in honor of the original entry -- tried to make them both exactly the same -- but I think I'll change it back to 'H', because you and I both thought to look for it there first... I don't know exactly why I missed the original entry, but it might have been because it was sorted under 'F' and I looked under 'H'... sigh... Thanks for your help! - Barbara (Edit: ) P.S. I'm making a minor wording change in my Notes on the Lineage of the House of Eorl article in response to your critique. Thank you again! (Of course, in the meantime I also stumbled on another relevant quote, which I have to decide whether and how to incorporate... Research is never done, is it?)

 

The Bruinen River entry lists "Loudwater" as another name, which is correct, but it also lists Gwáthlo (which is misspelled anyway, should be Gwathló) and Greyflood, which is a separate, downstream river. If you want me to, I'll remove the extra names... - Barbara (Edit: ) Unlike everything and everyone else, Tolkien usually only gave two names to his rivers...

 

Bag End is listed as being in "Underhill, Hobbiton, The Shire." I don't believe that Underhill is a place name... it should be The Hill, Hobbiton, The Shire (if you really want to get so precise)... - Barbara

 

The entry for Minas Tirith has an alternate name of "White Tower", but that name refers to the Tower of Ecthelion... - Barbara P.S. "Tower of the Guard" is correct, of course.

 

If you want me to, I'll remove the extra names... Yes, or one could move the names to the text box, explaining that the Bruinen joins Mitheithel to become the Greyflood or Gwathló. Thanks! Lyllyn BTW, checking on "Underhill," that is used in HoMe VI, the Return of the Shadow.

 

The entry for Rivendell has as an alternate name "Last Homely House". That is incorrect. The Last Homely House (aka The House of Elrond) is a building/settlement within the Valley of Rivendell. They are often used interchangeably, just like we Americans sometimes say "Washington [DC]" to mean "The White House", but they are two separate things. Lyllyn, I recently added The Last Homely House as an entry... Is that the duplicate you were referring to? - Barbara

 

Yes, or one could move the names to the text box, explaining that the Bruinen joins Mitheithel to become the Greyflood or Gwathló. Yes... that's a good idea! BTW, checking on "Underhill," that is used in HoMe VI, the Return of the Shadow. True, but "The Hill" is used in The Hobbit and LoTR, which trump HoME in terms of canon as far as I'm concerned... (And, in LoTR, "Underhill" is used as a surname of some Hobbits in Bree; assuming that it's a surname that came from a dwelling-place, that would suggest that Underhill, if it still existed in Tolkien's mind, is in or near Bree... it doesn't look like Bree-Hobbits had much interbreeding with Shire-Hobbits...) (My copy of The Annotated Hobbit includes three variations of a drawing titled: "The Hill: Hobbiton across the Water", drawn by JRRT himself, that clearly show Bagshot Row and Bag End. It's a delightful picture! Tolkien was *such* a genius...) - Barbara

 

I recently added The Last Homely House as an entry... Is that the duplicate you were referring to? No, there were identical duplicates, I think it was "hall of fire," and there were others earlier. I know I did at least one that I later changed. I take your point about Last Homely House, edit away. As to Underhill, I agree LotR or Hobbit trump HoMe, but I often mention "an earlier name was..." Lyllyn

 

No, there were identical duplicates, I think it was "hall of fire," Yeah, sorry, I'm responsible for that one... but Nessime removed it as soon as I asked... I take your point about Last Homely House, edit away. Okay, but after I finish going thru your list... As to Underhill, I agree LotR or Hobbit trump HoMe, but I often mention "an earlier name was..." Okay... (edit: ) but this is an entry about Bag End, not about The Hill, so I think I'll leave that out. - Barbara

 

Could one of you delete a Things entry for me? It is called "Two Watchers of the Tower of Cirith Ungol, The" and I just added it this evening. (Edit: THID=222) This entry was intended to be a Place, not a Thing; I have now also added it as (just plain) "Two Watchers, The" to Places... that's the good entry, which should be kept. Sorry! - Barbara P.S I've now caught up and fixed all the problems I've brought up in this thread...

 

Could one of you delete a Things entry for me?

Done. Even though they are rather thingish (not sure if that's a real word ), but I concur:Places is the proper place for them.

I've now caught up and fixed all the problems I've brought up in this thread...

*applause* Good job. ~Nessime

 

Thanks, Nessime! I appreciate your help in deleting my stray Thingy. - Barbara

 

Question: I've thrown together some tidbits about the Temple that Sauron built in Armenelos for the worship of Melkor. Should it be called the Temple of Sauron (because he built it) or the Temple of Melkor (because he's ostensibly the one being worshipped) or just the Temple of Armenelos? (Or, do you have a better idea?) - Barbara

 

Good question, Barbara. *Ness goes off to consult various texts...* *Okay, I'm back...* In the Silmarillion Tolkien only refers to it as "the Temple", though in one of the earlier drafts of The Fall of Numenor and the Lost Road in HoM-e 5 he refers to it as " the Temple for Morgoth" (some of the early drafts capitalize the word temple; others do not). I don't recall seeing any other title for it in Tolkien's own writings, so my instinct is to stick to the bare facts as he gave them, and title any Resources entry as simply the Temple or possibly the Temple (in Armenelos) - the latter would distinguish it from the other temples Tolkien noted that the Men of Numenor built in Middle-earth (presumably also to worship Melkor). Then present the relevant details within the body of the text (i.e. that Sauron built - or caused to be built - a temple in Armenelos where " men made sacrifice to Melkor" etc., etc. *i.e. whatever details you have from Tolkien's corpus - but you know that already ) Now if you were asking in terms of writing a story, I think you could reasonably refer to it by any of the names you've suggested - artistic license, and all that. ~Nessime

 

Thanks, Nessime! I dubbed it the Temple in Armenelos. - Barbara

 

Hi! Could one of you delete another stray Thingy for me? Sometimes I get on an "Adding Things" kick, and don't stop to think that some Things are maybe kinda sorta borderline Places. The stray Thing is "Durin's Stone", THID=237. I've already added it as a Place. I've decided that the criteria for Thingish Places is this: if the item can be moved somewhere else without losing its essential character, it's a Thing (e.g. Balin's Tomb). If it can't be moved, it's a Place (e.g. Two Watchers, which guard the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and Durin's Stone, which marks a specific spot by the Mirrormere). Thanks in advance... and I apologize for making work... - Barbara

 

Done, Barbara! And it's not a problem, Ang has it set up so it's fast and easy. And since I've been doing little enough else around here recently... Lyllyn

 

Thanks, Lyllyn! And your very presence is an inspiration... - Barbara

 

And since I've been doing little enough else around here recently... You've been doing more than you thought: One of your quotes just migrated from the Fell Winter entry to the Horn-call of Buckland entry. (And it picked up a couple links along the way...) - Barbara

 

Which do you prefer: "X Becomes King of Rohan", or "X Becomes King of the Mark"? And: "Y of Rohan Is Born", or "Y of Rohan Born"? I'm working on putting in the events around the "Invasion of Rohan by Easterlings, Dunlendings, Corsairs of Umbar, and Whoever the Heck Else Just Plain Felt Like Ganging Up on Them" in 2759, and finished the Orcs Trouble Rohan after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs entries, and decided that the list of Kings in Appendix A makes great fodder for births, ascensions, and deaths... so you'll probably see a few more of those coming. We likes the Rohirric history, oh yes we does, Precioussss... - Barbara

 

Which do you prefer: "X Becomes King of Rohan", or "X Becomes King of the Mark"?

While either is correct (as would be ...King of the Riddermark), I think that the most commonly recognized appellation is Rohan, so I would stick to that for basic entries (the other designations would probably show up in any links ).

"Y of Rohan Is Born", or "Y of Rohan Born"?

Hmmm... Hadn't thought about that before. IIRC (don't have the Tale of Years in front of me at the moment) the abbreviated form is what Tolkien used in the appendicies (the is being understood).

I'm working on putting in the events around the "Invasion of Rohan by Easterlings, Dunlendings, Corsairs of Umbar, and Whoever the Heck Else Just Plain Felt Like Ganging Up on Them"...

Catchy title. We likes it, we does. Barbara, are you by any chance related to the Energizer Bunny? I can't keep up with you (and that is definitely not a complaint!) ~Nessime

 

While either is correct (as would be ...King of the Riddermark), I think that the most commonly recognized appellation is Rohan, so I would stick to that for basic entries Agreed; I think 'Rohan' is the most likely keyword to be searched on. So, is it okay to change the title of Eorl the Young becomes King of the Mark for consistency? (He was also called King of Calenardhon, but that's a bit obscure, outside of us trivia geeks...) IIRC (don't have the Tale of Years in front of me at the moment) the abbreviated form is what Tolkien used in the appendicies (the is being understood). Yes, you're right. I hadn't noticed that before, so I'll use the "X of Rohan Born" form (at least, when I remember to Good thing we can go back and correct entries, because I seem to do a lot of that...) And, whoever came up with the brilliant idea of saying "X of Rohan Born" instead of "X, King of Rohan, Born" deserves kudos... the other wording is just... weird. Barbara, are you by any chance related to the Energizer Bunny? I can't keep up with you Nessime, I can't tell you how funny that is... - Barbara

 

I agree with Nessime on both points. And, whoever came up with the brilliant idea of saying "X of Rohan Born" instead of "X, King of Rohan, Born" deserves kudos... the other wording is just... weird. I think Lyllyn started the trand with the Numenorean Kings, and I followed her example with the Kings of Arnor. Though it probably goes back to the books one way or another. ~Loqi

 

I agree with Nessime on both points. Good! that makes 3 of us... I think Lyllyn started the trand with the Numenorean Kings, and I followed her example with the Kings of Arnor. And I'm so glad I noticed at least one of the entries... (sometimes miss things that I look straight at). It very neatly solves the problem of placing this person (as in, why should I care that he was born?), without yet ascribing to them the role that they will take on later, when they have presumably grown up a bit... Thanks, Loqi! - Barbara

 

I think 'Rohan' is the most likely keyword to be searched on. So, is it okay to change the title of Eorl the Young becomes King of the Mark for consistency?

If you haven't already done so, yes. I think it would be preferable to have the consistency. ~Nessime

 

There's an error in the Anduin entry about the source of one of the two rivers that conjoin to create the Anduin (Langwell flows from the Misty Mountains, not the Grey). I'll add it on my list of things to fix.... got a quote, even. *Sigh* unfortunately, it's not quotes, but a written description. I'll fix the (first sentence of the) description, but I'm not sure whether to add the quote or not -- it would mostly repeat what's in the description. Should I add the quote anyway? And maybe shove it in at the bottom, thinking that anyone who reads that far can stand a little bit of redundancy? We really prefers quotes, yes, we does.... - Barbara

 

Hmm... it is best that you talk to the person who did the entry, and then come up with some sort of agreement. Though no one's going to hound you for adding quotes, redundant or not, nor correcting the original description. Sorry, I'm not being really helpful. I'm having a migraine and can't think straight. ~Loqi

 

Thanks, Loqi. Hope you have some codeine on hand... that and about six hours of sleep is the only thing that touches my migraines.... Hope you feel better soon! - Barbara

 

Barbara, thanks for fixing that! Lyllyn

 

You're welcome, Lyllyn! Will do it later tonight... - Barbara

 

Sorry for not seeing this earlier. We lost our Internet connection for awhile - the first time in ages that's happened. I tend to take our connection too much for granted. That's how dependable it's been.

Though no one's going to hound you for adding quotes, redundant or not, nor correcting the original description.

Loqi's correct; in fact, I am more than grateful to you - and Loqi - for keeping on top of such things. There are times when even the best researchers need betas. ~Nessime PS - Loqi, I hope you feel better soon. PPS - We really prefers quotes, yes, we does.... Yes, we does, precious...

 

Sorry for not seeing this earlier. We lost our Internet connection for awhile - the first time in ages that's happened. I tend to take our connection too much for granted. That's how dependable it's been. LOL! I spent nearly a week -- getting my disaster area house ready for company, having company, & being out of town -- and couldn't wait to have my HASA fix when I got back... Nessime, did I actually send the reply to your message of a couple days ago? I composed it offline, but, as usual, forgot to cc: myself... and can't remember whether I mailed it. - Barbara

 

Nessime, did I actually send the reply to your message of a couple days ago?

Re: a potential researcher? Yes, you did, thank you. I received your reply yesterday. ~Nessime

 

There are times when even the best researchers need betas. I think we should set up a rule, or a system on correcting entry mistakes. It is best that we drop a line to the entry contributor when we want to edit something, but the contributor might not be available, or the editor can't wait for a reply. Since any research admin can edit an entry, is it really necessary to wait for the contributor to say yes? ~Loqi PS- Yes, thank you, I am feeling better. Though I still think I am not making sense.

 

I think we should set up a rule, or a system on correcting entry mistakes. It is best that we drop a line to the entry contributor when we want to edit something, but the contributor might not be available, or the editor can't wait for a reply. Since any research admin can edit an entry, is it really necessary to wait for the contributor to say yes? I don't think we have to wait for someone to say 'yes', and there's the additional problem that some entries have several contributors. I admit that I don't even remember what I added to many entries, or even which entries I did. Posting an intent to edit gives everyone involved a chance to check and discuss if it's not a true error. I think posting the intent is all we really need. How do others feel about this? PS- Yes, thank you, I am feeling better. Though I still think I am not making sense. I'm glad you're feeling better. You are making perfect sense. And thanks, Loqi, for bringing it up! Lyllyn

 

Posting an intent to edit gives everyone involved a chance to check and discuss if it's not a true error. I think posting the intent is all we really need. How do others feel about this?

I think this is quite reasonable. Do you think we should have a separate topic just for pending corrections, so they don't get buried under the other business here?

You are making perfect sense. And thanks, Loqi, for bringing it up!

Yes, you're making perfect sense, as Lyllyn says. I'll add my thanks to hers. ~Nessime PS - I'm glad to hear you're feeling better. Headaches of any description are not fun.

 

I think we should set up a rule, or a system on correcting entry mistakes. Actually, this thread is my system -- that's the reason I started it (or rather its predecessor). If I see a minor error in an entry (a typo, for example) I just fix it and forget about it. If there is any substantive change in the content, I post it here and see whether at least one Resource Vala okays the change. You can judge what I mean by a substantive change by seeing my original post above about the Anduin River... basically, one small phrase in the whole long entry is factually in error, but I checked before changing it. PS- Yes, thank you, I am feeling better. Good! Though I still think I am not making sense. Ummm, should I therefore be worried about the fact that you make sense to me? - Barbara

 

LOL! I typed my last response so slowly that two more replies came in before I posted it! Posting an intent to edit gives everyone involved a chance to check and discuss if it's not a true error. I think posting the intent is all we really need. How do others feel about this? Absolutely. And, as I said, that is what I started the original of this thread for. Do you think we should have a separate topic just for pending corrections, so they don't get buried under the other business here? Well, this thread is getting too long anyway. May I propose breaking it into two new threads? Say, - Pending Corrections, and - Resource Library Questions (or Admin Questions?) (or Discussion?) (where this discussion would go under the second one, and my original post on the Anduin would go under the first...) We already have a Future Resource Database Requests, which I think has been working well for its purpose (i.e. just documenting requests for future review...) - Barbara

 

I don't think we have to wait for someone to say 'yes', and there's the additional problem that some entries have several contributors. Yes, agreed. And there's the further problem of data that has been entered second-hand "from information from" someone else... - Barbara

 

I don't think we have to wait for someone to say 'yes', and there's the additional problem that some entries have several contributors. Seconded, or third(ed?) I should say. Well, this thread is getting too long anyway. May I propose breaking it into two new threads? Say, - Pending Corrections, and - Resource Library Questions (or Admin Questions?) (or Discussion?) (where this discussion would go under the second one, and my original post on the Anduin would go under the first...) Sounds good. Actually, this thread is my system -- that's the reason I started it (or rather its predecessor). I just realized that ; it looks like I was making sense, just not thinking straight. ~Loqi PS- Just so if I disappear: I'll be on a plane in one and a half days, to visit my relatives. I'll be away from my computer for two weeks, though there's a good chance I will get one once I get there.

 

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