Henneth Annûn Story Archive

This discussion is open to any HASA member. Everyone is encouraged to let the team know when you have found a tidbit left out of a bio. Description, facts, etc. - bring it on and I'll update the bio.

Those of you with the HoME set or Letters of JRR Tolkien available may have access to some good additional information. Send it in and it will appear.

Lyllyn.

 

I noticed that Elboron is listed as a child of Faramir, but not of Eowyn- was that intentional since, it is possible that Faramir had another wife after Eowyn, or just an oversight (since, surely he knows that Una and I would kill him if he didn't spend the rest of his life pining and alone)?

 

I don't think you have to worry too much (I'll join the killing if he didn't). But I think it is an oversight, because his bio was edited once.

 

Pure oversight, It was added later to Faramir's, and not Eowyn. All fixed, no killing is in order. This is exactly the sort of thing we need members to spot, thanks.

Lyllyn

 

The bio for Boromir II currently has the description from the Council of Elrond, but only in part. Currently, the bio reads:

"He was cloaked and booted as if for a journey on horseback; and indeed though his garments were rich, and his cloak was lined with fur, they were stained with long travel. He had a collar of silver in which a single white stone was set; his locks were shorn about his shoulders. On a baldric he wore a great horn tipped with silver that now was laid upon his knees."

I'd suggest adding the preceding sentence from the books, and the final sentence, both of which were left out. Thus it would read:

"And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance.

"He was cloaked and booted as if for a journey on horseback; and indeed though his garments were rich, and his cloak was lined with fur, they were stained with long travel. He had a collar of silver in which a single white stone was set; his locks were shorn about his shoulders. On a baldric he wore a great horn tipped with silver that now was laid upon his knees. He gazed at Frodo and Bilbo with sudden wonder."

I suggest this because the popularity of the movie seems to have a lot of folks making him blond-haired and green-eyed, and often a bit churlish. I think the last sentence, though it doesn't speak directly to his appearance, does soften the "proud and stern of glance" part and help round out his character.

And thanks for this great resource!
-Rachel

 

Done, and thanks, Rachel.

Lyllyn

 

I was just browsing over the Appendices in Return of the King this afternoon when it reminded me of a conflict that I found in my book a long time ago, concerning Sam Gamgee's birthday.
It was stated in Appendix B, Tale of Years:
"2983 Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise."
But it was also stated in Appendix C, in Sam's family tree that he was born on SR 1380. So I went back to Appendix B to the section of "Later Events Concerning the Members of FotR". It says:
"1469 (SR) Master Samwise becomes Mayor for the seventh and last time, being in 1476, at the end of his office, ninety-six years old."
I did a litte bit of math and it turns out Sam was born on SR 1380, which equals to III 2983.
I am debating whether or not I should change the date of Sam's birthday in the character bios (it states III 04.06.2983), since I don't own any other books that would prove my theory.

~Loqi

 

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. It sounds like both ways you're coming up with 2983?

Lyllyn

 

*SMACKS head on table* Somebody cure me of typos! ACK!
Sorry, I'll try again.

I did a litte bit of math and it turns out Sam was born on SR 1380, which equals to III 2983.

It should be "equals to III 2980"

~Loqi
trying to study for exams and not succeeding

 

Galadriel's bio is missing Sam's wonderful description in TTT! Here ya go:

'Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime. But that's a lot o' nonsense, and all wide of my mark.'
'Then she must be lovely indeeed,' said Faramir. 'Perilously fair.'
'I don't know about perilous,' said Sam. 'It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she's so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame.' (TTT; 'The Window on the West')

 

Thank you... I'll add that in right away.

~Loqi

 

I did a litte bit of math and it turns out Sam was born on SR 1380, which equals to III 2983...It should be "equals to III 2980"
I am debating whether or not I should change the date of Sam's birthday in the character bios (it states III 04.06.2983), since I don't own any other books that would prove my theory.

In The Peoples of Middle-earth it only gives the Shire reckoning date. You can always add 'disputed' and put the details in the text box.

lyllyn

 

You can always add 'disputed' and put the details in the text box.

Ahhhh... ok.
Got that done.

~Loqi

 

For Gilraen.

Gilraen means "star", but "Raen" should mean queen, being an abbreviation of "rain".

 

Queen is 'rían', as in Celebrían, 'Silver Queen'.

AFAIK Sind. 'raen'/'rain' has the same root as Rána, 'the Wayward', one of the names of the moon in Quenya. Meaning: 'wandering, errant'. So Gilraen probably means 'Wandering Star', an appropriate name for a Dúnadan woman of the Late Third Age.

(Raen/rain is a mutated version of the same element 'ran' that is found in the name Mithrandir, Grey Pilgrim - literally the 'Grey Wandering One'.)

 

Could I just cut and paste your commentary into Gilraen's bio, Finch?

 

That's fine with me, as long as it remains hypothetical; this is not a translation given by Tolkien himself.

 

Logged and noted. Thanks!

 

You know what? I think we missed an elf lord in our character bio list: Angrod son of Finarfin!

~Loqi

 

You know what? I think we missed an elf lord in our character bio list: Angrod son of Finarfin!

Good point. The character list is taken from the search drop down at the top of the page. There are several minor characters not listed, because there aren't stories about them.

I've been playing with the idea of a 'supporting character' list or factsheet which wouldn't involve the dropdown list. I realized the need when I was writing 'In Defense of the Light' and kept having to look for characters who could have been in Sirion, like Egalmoth and Voronwë. I'm sure others have the same issues, and that lots of research gets duplicated. Ang must've gone nuts identifying the canonical minor characters for 'Legacy' and 'On Merry Yule'.

Anyone have any ideas about this?

Lyllyn

 

Use the generic "Elves" in the character drop-down for stories.

You could start a research article that is dedicated to very, very minor characters, one chapter/page per character, which would provide as much info as possible on them. They could be added to as needed and the pages could be named and ordered alphabetically.

Just a thought, adn would be *darn* useful for Hobbits. Hmm...

Ang

 

There are several minor characters not listed, because there aren't stories about them.

Thanks for clearing that point up.

I realized the need when I was writing 'In Defense of the Light' and kept having to look for characters who could have been in Sirion, like Egalmoth and Voronwë.

How come Voronwe is not in the list? I always thought of him as important, and we do have a story about him (he being Tuor's guide).

~Loqi

 

For Shadowfax's name...I knew i had heard of the meaning before and found the meaning on www.glyphweb.com/arda. Shadow meaning grey, and fax meaning grey.

~Moriel

 

Thanks Moriel! I have added this.

Loqi, I don't know how I missed your previous post, my apologies. (two weeks late, but what the hey...)

I have posted your request in the Site Improvement Forum, in the topic 'Character List Request.' If you come across other characters that are major characters in stories, post your request in that forum.

Thanks for letting me know, sorry it took so long.

Lyllyn

 

Thanks for letting me know, sorry it took so long.

No worries. I know you are busy dealing with the minor character fact sheets. Thanks for replying and letting me know where to post my requests if I have more. However, if Voronwe does get in as a character on the list, we won't need to have a minor character fact sheet for him.

~Loqi

 

However, if Voronwe does get in as a character on the list, we won't need to have a minor character fact sheet for him.

Argghh. Oh well, I'll just transfer what I've got to the standard factsheet.

Lyllyn

 

I was just browsing the character bios and recalled this snippet of info re: Eomund:

"Here [Aldburg] Eorl had his house: it passed after Brego son of Eorl removed to Edoras into the hands of Eofor, third son of Brego, from whom Eomund, father of Eomer, claimed decent

The reference is on p. 367 (note at bottom) of UT.

Also, from Appendix A of LotR on 'The Kings of the Mark' comes this note:

"Eomund's chief charge lay in the east marches; and he was a great lover of horses and hater of Orcs...he would often ride against them in hot anger, unwarily and with few men."

~Nessime

 

I was just browsing the character bios and recalled this snippet of info re: Eomund

Thanks Nessime, this has been added.

Lyllyn

 

Lyllyn,
I was browsing Duinhir's bio and I was wondering if you forgot to put the description in and only wrote the citation down.

~Loqi

 

I was browsing Duinhir's bio and I was wondering if you forgot to put the description in and only wrote the citation down.

Oops. Thanks, now corrected.

Lyllyn

 

I think Anaire means "holiest"
aira = holy (adj.)
An+aira is the superlative form. Anaira = holiest.
Add the female ending e
Voila! But this is purely my own speculation.
And I think I remember a quote in Notes(Shibboleth of Feanor)
"...Finwe had black hair, and brilliant grey-blue eyes." when referring to Caranthir's black hair.

 

Finwë's eye color has been added, and the three minor character bios are added.

You have the most amazing memory!

Lyllyn

 

Lyllyn,
Is it ok for me to transfer some of the information about the Haradrim from the "Haradwaith" factsheet, to the newly made Haradrim Bio?

~Loqi

 

I noticed that there are 2 bios for Aldarion, one named "Aldarion" and the other "Tar-Aldarion". I am wondering if I should transfer the information to the newer one ("Tar-Aldarion") and delete the original, or just keep the original. ~Loqi

 

Good question. I try to put things where I think people are most likely to see them. The Aldarion bio has been there since the beginning. In any case, we should consolidate. Nessime? What do you think? BTW, Loqi, I just noticed your previous post, and can't remember answering it. By all means, add or transfer any information on Haradrim! Lyllyn

 

BTW, Loqi, I just noticed your previous post, and can't remember answering it. By all means, add or transfer any information on Haradrim! Thanks! I think we were busy discussing race/type catagories back then, and the post went unnoticed. ~Loqi

 

Oops! My fault, Loqi. I was looking to link Tar-Aldarion to Mallorn because there's the quote in UT that states he gave some to Gil-galad, who gave them to Galadriel - hence the mallorns in Lothlórien.

...some were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Númenor, to King Gil-galad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel...

The time-line events are all posted with Tar-[whoever], which is another reason why I began the bio under that name, though it is indexed under A. If "Aldarion" is typed into the search box it turns up Tar-Aldarion in the results. Otherwise I'd suggest keeping both and cross-referencing them. As it is, I wonder if we shouldn't just combine the two, with you and Moriel being credited for your entries (just copy and paste the original dates). The only alteration I'd make in what was there would be the "Titles". I didn't understand why it was posted as the (great) Captain when in UT it states that the Guild of Venturers called him the Great Captain (capitalized with no parentheses). What do you and Lyllyn think? I recall there being some discussion awhile back re: the titles of the Númenorean kings being used to distinguish them from those in the Third age who bore the same names. Should we have a set standard for entering their bios as well, particularly in light of the fact that a text search for the name sans the Tar- element will return the correct bio, but a search with it won't (I had tried entering "Tar-Aldarion" and came up empty, which is why I began the bio in the first place). ~Nessime Addendum - I won't change anything until I hear your thoughts on this.

 

I don't see any reason why we can't combine. Should we have a set standard for entering their bios as well, particularly in light of the fact that a text search for the name sans the Tar- element will return the correct bio, but a search with it won't I agree. We should set a standard for the Numenorean Kings, and make sure all of them has their prefixes attached (either Tar- or Ar-). Just took a glimpse at the Character list, only Ancalime is missing her prefix, the rest of the kings and queens has their full names down. ~Loqi

 

The search issue is very convincing - Tar-Aldarion sounds good! lyllyn

 

I transfered the info over, havn't deleted the old "Aldarion" though. Off I go to change Ancalime's name. ~Loqi Edited for typo.

 

I changed Ancalimë's name to Tar-Ancalimë, it effected the drop-down list, but not the link that popped up when I searched "Tar-Ancalimë". Meaning that when I typed in "Tar-Ancalimë", the characters that turned up was "Ancalimë" instead of "Tar-Ancalimë". Would it be more effective for the admins to change the name? ~Loqi

 

I changed Ancalimë's name to Tar-Ancalimë, it effected the drop-down list, but not the link that popped up when I searched "Tar-Ancalimë". Meaning that when I typed in "Tar-Ancalimë", the characters that turned up was "Ancalimë" instead of "Tar-Ancalimë". Loqi, I wonder if the page wasn't refreshed, or something like that (ignoramus on such things, I fear.) It worked fine for me - searching on either Ancalimë or Tar-Ancalimë returned Tar-Ancalimë's bio. It looks good. Lyllyn

 

Just catching up to all this. Thanks for noticing it in the first place - and for taking care of the meld. ~Nessime

 

It worked fine for me - searching on either Ancalimë or Tar-Ancalimë returned Tar-Ancalimë's bio.

Lyllyn, did you use the text search? I'm getting the information for Tar- Ancalimë (and related info) when I type in Ancalim* (using Ang's wildcard tip), but nothing for Tar-Ancalim* Hmmm... I remember asking Ang about this while we were testing, but I can't recall if it was due to being on the test site or if it was a different issue (I'm not a techie either). I'm not going to panic over it yet. It might just be an issue of the coding needing time to catch up to the changes (a very non-techie guess on my part). I'll check back later and see if the results are the same. If so, then I'll ask Ang if there's a problem. ~Nessime

 

Lyllyn, did you use the text search? I did, but I searched on Tar-Ancalimë. Try it as Tar-Ancalim? and see what happens. Lyllyn

 

Try it as Tar-Ancalim? and see what happens.

Nope. I got no results for that either. ~Nessime Addendum: I just tried it again with Tar-Ancalimë and got back the desired bio - strange as it usually doesn't work with the diacritics in place. I won't complain though.

 

I just figured some of it out. (slaps self on head). Using ancalim? won't work because the search thinks it's only part of a word - part of Tar-ancalimë. If I search on *ancalim?, I get the bio. I don't know yet how we can make sure people find what they want - I assume if we're confused, others will be too. I know Ang's working on some remaining issues from the changeover, so I won't ask now, but when she's done we may need more search instructions. But you should have got results with Tar-ancalim? also, I can't see why you wouldn't as it worked for me. Are you sure there were no extra spaces? Lyllyn

 

Are you sure there were no extra spaces?

Almost positive - I usually copy and paste just to be sure I don't enter a typo , so I'd copied what you had typed in your post. As I said, I'm not going to worry too much about it yet. I'll try to keep an eye on it (and other's like it) and see if there's a pattern that evolves. Perhaps we could ask others to tell us about any odd search results (or failures) for the time being, so we can see if a pattern evolves (rather than pestering Ang with some of the more readily resolved issues). Just a thought. ~Nessime

 

For me, Tar-Ancalimë Ancalimë Ancalim* Ancalim? ancalim? ancalim* *Ancalimë *Ancalim* *Ancalim? *ancalim* *ancalim? worked. Tar-ancalimë Tar-ancalim? Tar-ancalim* Tar-Ancalim? Tar-Ancalim* ancalimë *ancalimë tar-ancalimë tar-ancalim? tar-ancalim* didn't work. ~Loqi

 

Wow! That is one comprehensive list, Loqi. Unfortunately I have no clue as to why some work and others don't - that would be a question for Ang. It will be interesting to see if any sort of pattern emerges with the other names (those with hyphenation and/or diacritics). ~Nessime Addendum: decided to play around with Ar-Pharazôn's search parameters and this is what I have so far:

Pharazon yields the bio for Inzilbêth Ar-Pharazon yields same result Pharaz?n yielded same result Pharaz*n yielded same result Ar-Pharazôn yields the bios for Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Míriel/Ar-Zimraphel, Elendil and Dúnedain; Places: Umbar, Rómenna; Things: Alcarondas, Aranrúth, Nimloth; Events: Ar-Pharazôn sets sail and lands at Umbar; The Downfall of Númenor; Ar-Pharazôn begins building the Great Armament; Ar-Pharazôn Seizes the Throne; Sauron corrupts Ar-Pharazôn and the Númenoreans; Birth of Tar-Míriel; Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; Birth of Ar-Pharazôn Pharazôn yields same result Ar-Pharaz?n yielded no results Ar-Pharaz*n yielded no results

 

I don't understand why Pharaz?n and Pharaz*n (with or without the prefix) wouldn't yield his bio. Then again, the results I got with Ancalime were very odd too. Pharazon yields the bio for Inzilbêth I checked Inzilbêth's bio and it turned out that in the description box, her grandson's name was typed without the accent. That's probably why her bio showed up. I'm going go to fix that right now, and see what happens. ~Loqi

 

As I understand it, mixing upper and lower cases means the search will be case sensitive, explaining some of your resutls, but not others. I'm confused. Lyllyn

 

Hi, Since Nessime created the wonderful example of a bio for Wormtongue that refers to the filled-in bio under Grima Wormtongue, I just added a bio for Elwë that points to the one under Thingol. Thanks, Nessime! - Barbara Edit: I've been wanting to do that for a long time!

 

...her grandson's name was typed without the accent...

Thanks, Loqi. I should have caught that myself (guess I was too focused on the search parameters ). I agree that we should correct those omissions when they crop up - if I'm not mistaken, the correct spelling is one of the things people may be looking for in the bios, and that includes the proper diacritics. ~Nessime

 

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