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Discussing: Races and types - changes coming

Races and types - changes coming

There are big changes to the Resources section coming early in 2004, lots of new toys! As part of the redesign, there will be dropdown choices for races and perhaps for types. To insure I don't forget anything, here is what I have so far. Any suggestions/additions welcome.

Races:
Ainur
Animal
Dwarf
Elf
Ent
Hobbit
Man
Orc
Peredhil
Other (Tom Bombadil, Goldberry)

Type:
Elf
- Noldor
- Sindar
- Teleri
- Vanyar
- Nandor (Sylvan?)
I realize Sindar is a type of Teleri, but it does seem easier to distinguish the two. Opinions?

Man
- Dúnadan of Gondor
- Dúnadan of the North
- Dúnadan of Numenor might be repetitious, as any of the kings of numenor are obvious)
- Rohirrim
The categorization of other Men is a good question - the men of Dale are related to the Rohirrim, but will most users know that? There are no other Men in the character list, but I could envision someone asking for Beorn, or Barliman Butterbur, or Ghan-buri-ghan.

Animal:
- Dog (or hound, if preferred)
- Dragon
- Eagle
- Horse
- Spider
Ainur
- Maia
- Vala

Any help correcting, adding to, or making this list easy to use is greatly appreciated!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Race:
What about the different evil races besides orcs? (Trolls jump to mind. Not sure if you want to include uruks as a separate race; I've always thought of them as such but from what I was reading in the Silm last night seems they're more a variation on orcs.)

Type:

On types of men, do you want to include some of the races of evil men, i.e., Haradrim, Southrons?

Animal:

You might consider including wargs here?

Not sure how in-depth you want to go. There are of course various descriptions of animals being eaten (i.e., Sam's coneys) but there are a few other animals that have roles in the plot, such as the crebain or (for a more minor example) the fox that happens upon the hobbits as they're leaving the Shire. I'm trying here to think of examples of animals that actually interact in some fashion with the characters.

Ainur

Might by worth a mention of the istari here as well... or perhaps under races, or even as a sub-category of Maia? I know that they are Maia, but they seem to be a unique class of Maia that they might deserve separate mention?

Other than that, this looks excellent.

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Some good thoughts, Marta; most of this is less classification of all characters as of the ones we have in the knowledge base character bios. I haven't tried to list classifications for any group where there aren't individuals to write bios on.

It's confusing - but without individuals I've put material on wargs under 'Things' - animals, and with only a few individual orcs named, I haven't divided that up either, although one certainly could, as you point out. Same for certain races of men: Dunlendings, Pukel-men, Haradrim, etc. - no or few named individuals.

I like the way you're thinking about this, though; keep at it!

lyllyn - still trolling bait in front of Marta.

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

lyllyn - still trolling bait in front of Marta.

You know, I've found that doing research for bios. etc. is an excellent way to learn more about the people and places in M-e.


~Nessime

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Man
- Dúnadan of Gondor
- Dúnadan of the North
- Dúnadan of Numenor might be repetitious, as any of the kings of numenor are obvious)
- Rohirrim
The categorization of other Men is a good question - the men of Dale are related to the Rohirrim, but will most users know that? There are no other Men in the character list, but I could envision someone asking for Beorn, or Barliman Butterbur, or Ghan-buri-ghan.


And I thought it was going to be tough to categorize the Elves...

The men east of the Misty Mountains could be categorized as Beornings and Bardings. I agree that lumping them with the Rohirrim would be tough -- though if you wanted to, you could call them all "Men of the Twilight."

Faramir gives this breakdown in "Window on the West"

Men of the West [Numenoreans, Dunedain]
Men of the Twilight [Rohirrim, Beornings, Bardings]
Men of Darkness [Wild Men]

But this doesn't really cover everyone...


 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

It's a good thought. I'd worry that not all users will know who fits into which category, and it should be as self-explanatory as possible.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Maybe we can just make an "Others" catagory. There are not many characters we know in those separate groups (Beornings, Bardings, or Druedain).
I was thinking about the men of First Age, should we make a separate catagory for them?

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

"Others" is a good idea, if you don't wish to add a lot of separate subheadings for minor characters. I just added the Chieftains of the Easterlings (Bór and Ulfang) to the huge super-genealogy that I'm compiling, as well as the Beornings and the Bardings, so I would like a category for them.

I would like to make my genealogy as consistent with your database as possible. My Caste field (built-in to the Family Tree Maker software that I am using) contains your Race/Species field, followed by a dash, followed by your Type field (e.g. Elf - Sindar). The resemblance was accidental at first, but now I am deliberately making the possible values match the ones in your database.

Of course, with nearly 700 entries and 70 generations (that's just Elves and Men, by the way), every time I change my mind about how to enter something, it just delays getting the thing finished... ;-)

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Sorry for jumping in so late, but I'd like to add my two pennies' worth.

1) instead of Dúnadan of Numenor, I suggest simply Númenórean. (Hmm, I see a "2nd age Numenoreans" -- is that your old category, or the new?)

2) I suggest keeping all the Races and Types in the singular. (For your database, it's a matter of consistency. For my genealogy, it's a matter of space -- each item in a family tree can only be one inch wide, and every line that wraps around may cause a whole generation to be bumped to the next page, so shorter is definitely better.) So, since you use e.g. "Man", and "Elf", you should also use "Peredhel" not "Peredhil", and "Númenórean" not "Numenoreans".

And speaking of Peredhel, I am using "Peredhel - Elf" and "Peredhel - Man" for those Half-elven who made a choice (that we know), and just plain "Peredhel" for Elladan and Elrohir.

3) Since you'll be using drop-down boxes for data entry -- and, I assume, also searches -- I recommend that you include all the proper accents, like Númenórean. I'm very familiar with the problem of searching for those of us who use English-language keyboards, but drop-down boxes should solve that problem.

4) You are planning to include "Man - Edain", right?

5) Your post didn't mention having the Age as part of the Race/Type (e.g. "1st Age Edain" and "2nd age Numenoreans"). I hope that means that you are planning to separate those two data elements...

Lyllyn, I am finding the Resources section to be incredibly helpful, and I'm sure the database changes will make it even more so. Looking forward to seeing the result! (And, since I've spent so much time on the mother of all genealogies, I am beginning to appreciate how much work goes into the Resources section... My thanks to you and everyone else involved!)

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Elena,
When I get home tonight I will give you a list of what we are using.

I'm glad you are finding it helpful. I look foward to your genealogies!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Sorry for jumping in so late, but I'd like to add my two pennies' worth.

Welcome!

The current categories are:

Races:
Ainur
Beasts and Monsters
Dwarf
Elf
Ent
Hobbit
Man
Orc
Peredhil
Other

Type:
Ainur
- Maia
- Vala
Elf
- Noldor
- Sindar
- Teleri
- Vanyar
- Nandor /Silvan
Man
- 1st Age Edain
- 2nd Age Numenorean
- Dúnadan of Gondor
- Dúnadan of the North
- Rohirrim
- Other Edain
- Men of the Shadow


2) I suggest keeping all the Races and Types in the singular. (For your database, it's a matter of consistency.

This can probably be changed, although not soon, as Ang is working on other areas. I'll add it to the wish list.

And speaking of Peredhel, I am using "Peredhel - Elf" and "Peredhel - Man" for those Half-elven who made a choice (that we know), and just plain "Peredhel" for Elladan and Elrohir.

This sounds good for the genealogy. I won't change the drop downs right now, as it would require 3 categories instead of 1.

3) Since you'll be using drop-down boxes for data entry -- and, I assume, also searches -- I recommend that you include all the proper accents, like Númenórean. I'm very familiar with the problem of searching for those of us who use English-language keyboards, but drop-down boxes should solve that problem.

Onto the wish list, unless there is a problem with it. I know diacriticals can't be used in certain fields as it causes problems. I'm not sure if the dropdowns fall in this category.

4) You are planning to include "Man - Edain", right?
5) Your post didn't mention having the Age as part of the Race/Type (e.g. "1st Age Edain" and "2nd age Numenoreans"). I hope that means that you are planning to separate those two data elements...


It currently is set up with age/type in order to avoid confusion. Look at the above list and let me know if it's clear to the user.

I am finding the Resources section to be incredibly helpful, and I'm sure the database changes will make it even more so. Looking forward to seeing the result!

Yay! Things like this make it feel worthwhile; thanks.

(And, since I've spent so much time on the mother of all genealogies, I am beginning to appreciate how much work goes into the Resources section... My thanks to you and everyone else involved!)

On behalf of all the volunteers who did so much, your welcome!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Thanks, Lyllyn! This list helps.

With a few minor exceptions (e.g. "Edain" instead of "1st Age Edain"), I will make my genealogies consistent with your race and type values.

I do have a few suggestions that I think will make sense for the problem you are solving -- that is, how to classify racial types in a way that will be clear to *anyone* who might be doing the data entry. Some of these I already mentioned above, but I'm compiling them in one post so you can easily add them to your wish list (or not) as you see fit. These are in order of importance IMHO.

1. Add "Ainur - Istari" to distinguish wizards from general Maiar

2. Change "Man - Men of the Shadow" to "Man - Other Non-Edain"

3. Change "Peredhil" to "Peredhel" and "Ainur" to "Ainu"

4. Add "Peredhel - Man" and "Peredhel - Elf"

5. Change "Man - 2nd Age Numenorean" to "Man - 2nd Age Númenórean"

If you'd like to know my reasons, let me know, but I was trying to keep this post succinct.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

2. Change "Man - Men of the Shadow" to "Man - Other" (or "Man - Other Non-Edain")

If you'd like to know my reasons, let me know, but I was trying to keep this post succinct.

Fortunately posts don't have to be succinct the way the drop-downs do, so we can post as long as we like.

We went back and forth quite a bit about the "Men of the Shadow" and "Other Edain" and I don't think we found one solution that seemed perfect to everyone.

The categories were picked to make clear the distinctions, as you say, but also to try to keep the dropdown a managable length, and that the width of the category used had to be reasonable as well. I tried to keep from creating too many categories that had very few members, which is why I didn't use Istari; otherwise that would have been a good one.

I think the Man categories have the most potential to be difficult and confusing.

So the upshot of this long rambling post is - expound on your reasoning for the Man categories!

lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Lyllyn, before I respond to your post let me give you a heads-up:

I changed item #3 on my list by adding a request to change "Ainur" to "Ainu".

I can keep singular and plural straight off the top of my head on "peredhil", but *definitely* had to look up "ainur"...

EDIT to this post:

I later changed #2, and am now recommending "Man - Other Non-Edain" instead of "Man - Men of the Shadow".

I removed the alternative of "Man - Other" because "Man - Other Non-Edain" is a better contrast with the already-existing "Man - Other Edain", whereas "Man - Other" could be a superset of "Man - Other Edain".

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Hi Lyllyn,

I tried to keep from creating too many categories that had very few members, which is why I didn't use Istari; otherwise that would have been a good one.

Though they are few in number, I would argue that they are important enough to warrant their own category because of widespread familiarity. All Hobbit or LoTR readers are familiar with the Wizards, but they don't necessarily know that Wizards are a subset of the Maiar, which don't make a significant appearance until the Silmarillion.

And Gandalf (64 stories), Saruman (7 stories) and even Radagast (4 stories) seem to have a rather large following...

By contrast, notice that I am not requesting that you separate the Valar into Aratar and non-Aratar, because so few readers have read the Valaquenta -- and, frankly, even fewer CARE about the distinction. ;-)

2. Change "Man - Men of the Shadow" to "Man - Other" (or "Man - Other Non-Edain")

We went back and forth quite a bit about the "Men of the Shadow" and "Other Edain" and I don't think we found one solution that seemed perfect to everyone.

I can imagine!

The categories were picked to make clear the distinctions, ...
...expound on your reasoning for the Man categories!

Let me start my explanation by telling you about my background: I am a software engineer. In the jargon of my field, most of my reasoning can be summed up by "good database design".

The Type flag needs to cleanly divide ("partition") the universe (all potential "Man" entries) into categories that do not overlap. Further -- because the field is required -- these categories *must* "cover" the entire universe. Otherwise, the person doing the data entry will be forced to enter an incorrect Type because there are no correct ones, and the field cannot be left empty.

All of the Types except "Men of the Shadow" are based upon Descent (descended from the 3 Houses of the Edain vs not) and then broken into subsets by Time/Location (which are closely related: whether they migrated to Númenor or not, and where they live now).

The remaining groups of Men (call them Type "X") that are not covered by the Types mentioned above:
a) do not descend from the 3 Houses, and
b) do not live in Rohan.

The only remaining Type, "Men of the Shadow", uniquely introduces a criterion based upon a Political distinction (do they serve Morgoth?). Unfortunately, that cannot describe *all* the peoples of Type "X", for example, Ghân-buri-Ghân's people -- for that, you would need another Type, say "Good Guys".

But why divide Type X into "Bad Guys" and "Good Guys" at all? Or, even worse, why assume that all Type X folks are "Bad Guys", which is the current state?

I am suggesting that we lump *all* Type X folks into the catch-all category "Man - Other Non-Edain" and be done with it, without any implication that they are bad guys.

Between the existing "Man - Other Edain" and "Man - Other Non-Edain", *every* potential Man could be described accurately, based upon the same criteria as all the other Types: Descent and Time/Location.

... but also to try to keep the dropdown a managable length, and that the width of the category used had to be reasonable as well.

Great! Because "Man - Other Non-Edain" is 2 characters shorter than "Man - Men of the Shadow"! ;-D

Sorry this took me so long to compose. I hope I explained myself clearly, but if you have any questions, please let me know!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Sorry this took me so long to compose. I hope I explained myself clearly, but if you have any questions, please let me know!

No apologies - I'm glad for the input.

This would mean we'd cut it up a little differently, but that could work. It would encompass Ghan-buri-ghan, the 1st age baddies like Uldor, and all the 3rd age baddies as well. Some of those from Umbar were descended from Edain, such as Castamir's sons and followers - would that confuse people?

It's too bad we can't use Faramir's categories:
"For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the
West, which were Númenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness." but I don't think most people would remember these.

--
Agreed that the wizards have a large following! Someone casually looking for their bios will find them by name as that's how the search works. The category is only to provide consistency in description. The data entry for the basic fact sheet for wizards is already done, so it won't confuse anyone entering data. It's more a matter of information for those that read the fact sheet.

I'm glad you're interested in this. I now know who to call on for suggestions when we do categorization of other things if you're willing, that is.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

This would mean we'd cut it up a little differently, but that could work. It would encompass Ghan-buri-ghan, the 1st age baddies like Uldor, and all the 3rd age baddies as well.

Yep, I've got all the people you've mentioned in your post in my genealogies, and the Types, as changed, would cover all of them.

Do you know off-hand whether the Easterlings are Edain or not? I think not... but I should check before changing them.

Some of those from Umbar were descended from Edain, such as Castamir's sons and followers - would that confuse people?

I don't think so. Someone who is doing the data entry would be looking at the sources, which clearly state that they (eg Sangahyando and Angamaitë) are descendants of Castamir. And they will - someday soon - have my genealogies to consult! Fully-indexed, of course!

It's too bad we can't use Faramir's categories:...but I don't think most people would remember these.

Unfortunately, that's true. I've read LoTR at least four times (since the first movie), and until I saw the Stewar239's post, I would have sworn that I never saw any such thing. (Also, the programmer in me says that his categories are too fuzzily-defined and may not cover the whole universe of Men.)

Agreed that the wizards have a large following! Someone casually looking for their bios will find them by name as that's how the search works. The category is only to provide consistency in description. The data entry for the basic fact sheet for wizards is already done, so it won't confuse anyone entering data. It's more a matter of information for those that read the fact sheet.

I just see the Istari as quite distinct from the average, run-of-the-mill Maiar.

Lyllyn, if I ever convince you to add Ainu - Istari, I will allow you to give me researcher (is that the right term?) capabilities. I not only would change the Istari bios myself, I would stop dinging you with little requests. And I could even help with future requests, like Loqi did with mine, as time permitted.

I'm glad you're interested in this. I now know who to call on for suggestions when we do categorization of other things if you're willing, that is.

Oh, absolutely! Let me know by email if a categorization discussion starts up and I don't join in. I'm left-brained, so I just LOVE creating comprehensive and non-overlapping categories...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Lyllyn, if I ever convince you to add Ainu - Istari, I will allow you to give me researcher (is that the right term?) capabilities. I not only would change the Istari bios myself, I would stop dinging you with little requests. And I could even help with future requests, like Loqi did with mine, as time permitted.

We also call it donning the lab coat. You gain access to a secret entrance invisible to human eye. But be warned, you are treading into dangerous territory, lurked with Lyllyn's specially bred resource!Nuzguls.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

We also call it donning the lab coat. ... But be warned, you are treading into dangerous territory, lurked with Lyllyn's specially bred resource!Nuzguls.

Hee, hee, hee! I'm not worried -- so far, Lyllyn has refused to add Istari, so I'm safe!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Lyllyn, if I ever convince you to add Ainu - Istari, I will allow you to give me researcher (is that the right term?) capabilities.

Is this blackmail or bribery?

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Is this blackmail or bribery?

I prefer to think of it as "incentivizing".

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I have to point out that Ghân-buri-Ghân's people, that is the "Druedain" *were* part of the 3 Houses of Edain in the First Age. They belonged the Haleth's folk, the 2nd House, but most of them didn't come to Numenor because they are not used to the sea.

But I guess this problem can be easily solved with the age/type, where the Druedain is part of the "Man - Edain" in the First Age and "Man - Other Non-Edain" or "Man - Other Edain" in the Second/Third Age.

Then again, do we have any First Age Druedain bios?

Also, this might sound like nick-picking, but if we want all the catagories in singular, then nearly all sub-catagories in the "Elf" catagory should be changed into singular, plus "Edain" would have to be "Adan".

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

We can change category names, but I'm afraid many people who know "Edain" won't know "Adan". It might be easier to make every category plural.

And of course you're right about the Druedain, they are descended from the Edain just like the Beornings are from the folk of Beor. Nothing is simple. There is a bio for Haleth.

One thing I've seen: you can never tell when someone will pick up a character mentioned in one sentence only and build a story or arc around him or her. When this happens the character may wind up on the dropdown and bio list. Garulf and Angbor were added that way. I keep waiting for someone to do Ulfang.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I have to point out that Ghân-buri-Ghân's people, that is the "Druedain" *were* part of the 3 Houses of Edain in the First Age. They belonged the Haleth's folk, the 2nd House, but most of them didn't come to Numenor because they are not used to the sea.

Aaaaargh! I shouldn't even give my own *name* without looking it up first!

But my rotten example doesn't change the point: the possible values for any required code/flag used to describe a data element needs to cover the entire universe of potential entries for that data element. Further, that the criteria used for all the values should be the same (per my post, all should be Descent and Age/Location, without adding Politics to the mix).

But I guess this problem can be easily solved with the age/type, where the Druedain is part of the "Man - Edain" in the First Age and "Man - Other Non-Edain" or "Man - Other Edain" in the Second/Third Age.

Now, that's definitely NOT going to be clear, and is a perfect illustration why it's a bad idea to mix the Age into the criteria. These code values will not work if you interpret "First Age" and "Second Age" as "the Age in which this specific individual lived". If you do, we will have to add, e.g., "2nd Age Edain" and "3rd Age Edain", as well -- and the number of codes multiplies beyond my mental capacity to follow! (Not to mention, it would make Lyllyn scream!)

I thought that "1st/2nd Age" was going to be interpreted as a modifier helping to describe the Group, not the Individual -- something like "the Age when the Group from which this Individual descends became distinct from a prior Group"; that is the only reason that I dropped my initial objection to it. So, per your correction, I thought that Man - 1st Age Edain would be used for any Drúedain, including G-b-G, no matter when he lives, because his People descend from the 3 Houses, but they (as a whole) did not migrate to Númenor.

*Sigh* From a database design standpoint, there are several problems with the Type code values (it's trying to pack too many different pieces of data into one field), but I chose to concentrate on the most important one IMHO: making the values span the entire potential universe using consistent criteria.

Also, this might sound like nick-picking, but if we want all the catagories in singular, then nearly all sub-catagories in the "Elf" catagory should be changed into singular, plus "Edain" would have to be "Adan".

Yes, we are both nit-picking perfectionists! We all want to make the database as clear as possible for everyone.

Okay, let's try this: All of the Race values should be singular (Elf, Man, Peredhel, Ainu), and the Type values may be singular or plural, depending upon which is a) more recognizable to everyone or b) shorter. OR, we can make all the Type values plural. Does that work for you?

You know, it's really hard to be perfect when reality keeps intruding...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

just like the Beornings are from the folk of Beor.

Oh, that's really too bad. (They were on my *VERY* long list of things to look up.) I was hoping the Beornings came from Beorn. That would have been a great category! "Man - People who descend from some big, strong, crazy guy who can turn himself into a bear at will" (Which would have been a good example of how "Man - Other Non-Edain" can be used...)

One thing I've seen: you can never tell when someone will pick up a character mentioned in one sentence only and build a story or arc around him or her.

Amen! Gotta be prepared!

I keep waiting for someone to do Ulfang.

Hee, hee. My genealogy is ready when they do! I have Ulfang & sons, Bór & sons, and Brodda & Aerin, although I wish I had a line of descent for Aerin (Kinswoman of Húrin is so unsatisfying...)

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

... although I wish I had a line of descent for Aerin (Kinswoman of Húrin is so unsatisfying...)

Never mind! I finally selected the correct book (UT) - out of a stack of 18 - to check for Aerin's genealogy.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

just like the Beornings are from the folk of Beor.

I'm sorry, Barbara, I must have been very sleepy when I wrote that. That's not substantiated, I think I was remembering a conversation with someone about choosing names for Beornings and using those of the folk of Beor.

In Peoples of Middle-earth:
"Eorl the Young was lord of the Men of Eotheod. This land lay near the sources of the Anduin, between the upper ranges of the Misty Mountains and the northernmost parts of Mirkwood. Thither the Eotheod had removed some hundreds of years before from lands further south in the vale of Anduin. They were originally close kin of the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest; but they loved best the plains and wide fields, and they delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship."

Which would leave the question of category - Rohirric or other non-edain?

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

just like the Beornings are from the folk of Beor.

I'm sorry, Barbara, I must have been very sleepy when I wrote that. That's not substantiated,

No problem. I've been known to post a few odd things when I was sleepy. In this thread, yet...

Actually, that still leaves room for my Beorn theory!

Which would leave the question of category - Rohirric or other non-edain?

I'd consider them Other Non-Edain, because they didn't make the migration to Rohan and settle with the Rohirrim. It's the same issue with Edain vs Numenorean vs Dunedain - the only difference is that some of them moved to Numenor (N), and some moved back (D), and some stayed the whole time (E).

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Right, forget what I said about the age/type catagorizing for the Druedain. I'll just shut up and let the experts do their job.

But I do have to get my head clear on this:

First Age Edain- the people of the Three Houses including the Druedain even G-B-G's people?
2nd Age Numenorean- the people of the Numenor, including the Black Numenoreans (eg. Witch-King) and any other Numenorean settled in Middle-earth before the Downfall?
Dunadan of Gondor- what it says
Dunadan of the North- ditto
Other Edain- the Corsairs of Umbar, though they are more Dunedain then just Edain, and men of Bree?
Other Non-Edain- Dunlendings, people of the (White) Mountains (the Dead), men of Bree, Evil Hill men of Angmar(?), Snowmen of Forochel, Beornings and men of Mirkwood, the men of Rhovanion/Eotheod (ancestors of the Rohirrim), the Rohirrim (or is this still a separate catagory?), people of Dale, and the Allies of Mordor.

The men of Bree is debatable, it sounds like in Lotr they were raiments of the first houses of Edain that didn't go to Numenor, but in UT, it says that they were related to the Dunlendings. They could be a mix of both.

~Loqi
(who's wondering if she could blame Barbara for the sudden return of the Family Tree making nuzgul)

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Hey there... I'm even later than the others.

Can we divvy up the Dwarves? The race that is in "Turin Turambar" (spelling hopeful!) in Unfinished Tales has become extinct by the time of LotR, but there were at one time two separate lines of Dwarves. I have the information at home, photocopied from the Tolkien Society Centenary meeting or some such (yes, yes, much background information for a story that I have neglected since July). But I'd be more than happy to be the Dwarvish reference person, should you wish.

Not trying to make extra work, of course, either!!

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Barbara and Loqi,

Given all the ambiguity, what will cover every eventuality and be easy for the researchers (yes, and keep the dropdowns to a reasonable length)?

I suspect I should sit back, and the two of you will formulate a great system.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Can we divvy up the Dwarves?

Thevina, this was considered, but as there are no bios from the other lines and not that many total dwarves in the bios we thought that additional information could go in the text boxes. Now of course I wouldn't want you to waste all that nice information so you could:

Enter it into the general bio factsheet 'Dwarves'
        OR
Put it into a Research Article
       OR
Put it into the existing article "Dwarves - Minor Canon Characters"

lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Now of course I wouldn't want you to waste all that nice information

Of course not!!

Consider it soon-to-be-entered.

*smooches*
The Dwarf-archivist,

Thevina

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Haven't forgotten you -- I'll be back with thoughts after fighting a few fires elsewhere...

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

*Barbara comes slinking back to this forum, hoping no one will notice her rather long absence...*

Um, hi Lyllyn. Um, would you mind *mumble* giving me *cough* researcher access *cough*? In my search for genealogy stuff through HoME (*Whine* why on earth couldn't JRRT have just decided on an ancestry for someone, and then STUCK with it? Why?), I sometimes run across little tidbits that I believe should be in the resources area (of course, they might already be there...)

And, I'd like to add Orophin to the min-biographies.

And, what is the best place to put info about Peoples, e.g. the Beornings? Would that go in the biography section?

From some info I found in The Hobbit and FoTR, it looks like the Beornings *are* descendants of Beorn (the one who turns into a bear). So much for my theory... Nothing ruins a good joke better than reality.

I'll have to get back to you (again) on that list of peoples and categories you asked about...

- Barbara

P.S. Please don't tell Loqi that I caved in on the researcher status...

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Glad to see you back. :: Lyllyn glances away as if Barbara had stepped out for a moment to get a cup of tea:::

Also glad to see you have been bitten by the bug. ''

P.S. Please don't tell Loqi that I caved in on the researcher status...

"Not. A. Word." to quote movieAragorn.

Ill change your status in a few minutes and send an email.

Welcome!
Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

P.S. Please don't tell Loqi that I caved in on the researcher status...

"Not. A. Word." to quote movieAragorn.


*Ahem* I heard that...

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

And, what is the best place to put info about Peoples, e.g. the Beornings? Would that go in the biography section?

Just normal Character Bio section. You'll see we have race types (Elves, Men, Hobbits,etc...) and some different catagories of men (Rohirrim and Dunedain). I think you'll have to create a new bio entry.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Late getting back to the other questions...

And, what is the best place to put info about Peoples, e.g. the Beornings? Would that go in the biography section?

Just normal Character Bio section. You'll see we have race types (Elves, Men, Hobbits,etc...) and some different catagories of men (Rohirrim and Dunedain). I think you'll have to create a new bio entry.

~Loqi


And, I'd like to add Orophin to the min-biographies.


Barbara, how much do you have on the Beornings? I can see a few ways to do it:
I can create 'Men' category. You can put it there, or if you have a lot of material, put something brief and link it to a research article on Beornings. OR
I can create a 'Beornings' category OR
I can create an 'Edain' category and several articles can link off that.

And I'll add Orophin.

lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Barbara, how much do you have on the Beornings?

Maybe three or four paragraphs at MOST. Short, in other words -- about the size of most mini-biographies.

I can create 'Men' category. You can put it there, or if you have a lot of material, put something brief and link it to a research article on Beornings. OR
I can create a 'Beornings' category OR
I can create an 'Edain' category and several articles can link off that.


Okay, just because I'm usually opinionated doesn't mean I have a clue which way would be best... Let me think out loud...

The way this came up, I keep seeing references to Beornings and (since I'm working on genealogies...) I wonder who they are and where they come from. Sooo, putting on my "if I were looking it up in the character bios section, where would I look" hat (which is entirely too big, and slips down over one sleepy eye...) ...

I think it would be easiest to find under "Beornings". (And, maybe in the future, "Bardings", "Rohirrim", "Easterlings", etc. *Not* making any promises... but these occasional nuggets of info that I find shouldn't be lost. Like I just read something - somewhere - about the Easterlings not being all alike in features or, um, evilness.).

So that's it: I would prefer to list the info under "Beornings". Is that okay with you?

And, can we researchers create new bios, or do we have to depend upon you to do that? Like, could I have created Orophin if I hadn't gotten waylaid? (So far, I've only edited existing ones...)

Oh, and do you have a preference for creating "See also" entries? For example, I really think of looking for Elwë under, well, Elwë or Elwë Singollo, but it's under Thingol. Is there a way to create an entry called "Elwë" that just says "See Thingol"? (I don't think it's a good idea to duplicate any of the information in the entry, 'cause any changes would never get applied to both.

(FYI, under the entry for Olwë, I added his siblings as: Thingol (Elwë) and Elmo. Hope the Thingol (Elwë) part was okay with you.)

Hee, hee, hee. I bet that you thought that giving me researcher status would mean more work for *me* instead of *you*.

- Barbara

Edit: Ah, good! Loqi's post pointed out that Rohirrim and Dunedain are already there... so let's just add Beornings. Thanks, both of you!

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

So that's it: I would prefer to list the info under "Beornings". Is that okay with you?


It's got advantages and disadvantages. (Hah! now that you're a researcher and a resources addict, you have to think about these things too.) Any new category gets added to the character search dropdown that is used to find stories, so we've tried to keep it to characters that there are stories about, or are important in some way - but it's all subjective. Actually, I recall someone is working on a beornings story, but I don't know if it's on public view yet. I know there are stories with Orophin, I'm surprised no one's asked before this. You do have to ask an admin to create a new bio. It got too disorganized otherwise, and duplicates were a problem.


The see-also is a good question. I'd rather list them under 'other names,' putting them after in parentheses as you have done on associated bios is fine. The problem with see-also is the same, it lengthens the dropdown. We've discussed this for Places, where it might be necessary, but the text searches do make up for some of those problems.


Hee, hee, hee. I bet that you thought that giving me researcher status would mean more work for *me* instead of *you*.


Eventually, eventually.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

P.S. Um, actually, my story is one of the ones with Orophin... my desire to add him (which is done, by the way) was not entirely altruistic...

- Barbara

P.S. Okay, so the Beornings stuff turned into six paragraphs...

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

We all got distracted by our projects and went off happily (and compulsively?) entering data. Then Haradrim was requested, which shows up as Men of the Shadow. So, back to the Classficiation Wars, especially Men, the real puzzler.

What currently exists:

Man
- 1st Age Edain
- 2nd Age Numenorean
- Dúnadan of Gondor
- Dúnadan of the North
- Rohirrim
- Other Edain
- Men of the Shadow

So what do we want to do about how to classify Men?

Suggestions that were made -
change Men of the shadow to Men, other
change Men of the shadow to Men, other non-Edain

Are there other ideas out there?

ElenaTiriel, Loki, Nessime, Thevina? Any one else?

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

So what do we want to do about how to classify Men?
Hmmm... I did the basic entry for the Haradrim as "Men of the Shadow" primarily because they were under Sauron's sway for so much of M-e's history; they are generally associated with "the Men of Darkness".
These categories could drive a body crazy. For example, there are some references to the Black Númenoreans having intermarried with the Haradrim - so how would those off-spring be classified? For that matter, how would you classify the Black Númenoreans themselves - as a sub category of the 2nd Age Númenoreans? But they were still in evidence into the 3rd Age, so then what category do they belong to? *see quote cited below* They are related to the Dúnedain, yet they don't fit that category. And they are more than simply "other Edain". (this is almost as confusing as the Choice of the Half-Elven debate)
Opinions and/or evidence from canon is welcome.
~Nessime
"And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin."
Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Barbara most humbly bows to Lyllyn and everyone else involved.

I apologize for stirring up trouble about the classifications, then abandoning you.

The good news is, in all the research I've been doing on my Genealogies, I think I can now *knowledgeably* answer your last post on this topic - from, um, quite a while ago - with my recommendations for how to classify Men.

Let me get my notes out, and I'll try to reply this evening.

- Barbara

P.S. Oh dear, I just realized that I used my suggested categories for Beornings and Bardings instead of the still-current ones. Sorry!

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Um, I'm still working on classifying all the groups of Men we spoke about on this thread. (Still looking up info - like, it looks like the Druedain are not related to the People of Haleth - they are explicitly described as a separate race... Gotta read the rest of the chapter to see if there's anything contradictory... Which *ahem* has been known to happen in Tolkien's works... )

But here is my proposal for how to determine which of my proposed categories a specific individual belongs to. It would be a lot easier to read if it were a graphical decision tree, but *sigh* I guess mere words will have to do.

In these questions, the phrase "Did his people..." is shorthand for "Did this individual or his or her ancestors...". Also, STOP means that the last category assigned to this individual is the correct one (in other words, you're done!).

1. Did his people descend from the Three Houses of the Edain?
Yes: Assign "Man - Other Edain" and continue to 2.
No: Go to 5.

2. Did his people migrate to Númenor?
Yes: Assign "Man - Númenórean" and continue to 3.
No: STOP.

3. Did his people migrate back from Númenor?
Yes: Go to 4.
No: STOP.

4. Did his people settle in Gondor?
Yes: Assign "Man - Dúnadan of Gondor" and STOP.
No: Assign "Man - Dúnadan of the North" and STOP.

5. Did his people settle in Rohan?
Yes: Assign "Man - Rohirrim" and STOP.
No: Assign "Man - Other Non-Edain" and STOP.

I think these questions are fairly straightforward, and use the same criteria throughout (descent and migration pattern). What do you think?

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Edited: I think it works for the most part, but it doesn't solve the problem of the Numenoreans who returned to M-e before the Downfall, where most of them turned "Black".
Also the corsairs of Umbar is another group that is hard to catagorize, are they the Dunedain of Gondor or Man- Other Edain?

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Edited note: this (long-winded) reply is to your message before you edited it...

Absolutely!

But of the Corsairs, we only know Angamaitë and Sangahyando by name.

Tolkien appeared to use the subcaste of the father to identify the children (e.g. calling Galadriel a Noldo), so I am following the same pattern in my genealogies. We do know that their great-grandfather, Castamir, is a Dúnadan of Gondor, but we don't know about their grandfather and father. Unfortunately, I have to work with the best info I can -- and some educated guesses -- in my genealogies. In this case, I am assuming that enough of Castamir's Dúnedain followers emigrated with him to keep Ang & Sang's bloodline relatively pure.

I am calling Ang & Sang Dúnedain of Gondor, but any other Corsair I would consider to be a Man - Non-Edain (unless their genealogy is available and says otherwise). Fortunately, IIRC Castamir's bloodline died when A & S were killed in 1810.

Sigh. I with Tolkien were an immortal, and had stuck around long enough for us to ask *him* these questions...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Actually, the Black Númenóreans are not a problem in my scheme, because I'm only using Descent (3 Houses or not) and Migration Pattern as criteria and leaving out the Evil/Not Evil factor.

So, both Imrazór the Númenórean (presumably a good guy) and the Black Númenóreans would be considered "Man - Dúnedain of Gondor".

(The only hole to the scheme is by subdividing Dúnedain into "of Gondor" and "of the North". For example, (I don't remember where the Black Númenóreans settled, so this is hypothetical) if the Black Númenóreans settled in lands that were *always* south of Gondor (not e.g. Umbar which kept bouncing back and forth), then calling them Dúnedain would be correct, but the "of Gondor" part is iffy (and "of the North" is worse). In an ideal categorization, we wouldn't make that distinction. But I'm arguining for "doable", not "ideal"...)

- Barbara

Edit: "arguining" is a newly-coined unintentional compound of "arguing" and "whining".

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Another example is Bór and his sons vs Ulfang and his sons. They are all Easterlings, but Ulfang's family served the Dark and Bór's family did not. I hate to paint Bór's family as Men of Shadow when they don't deserve it. (They would all be Man - Other Non-Edain in my scheme.)

- B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Hmm... I don't know. The one Black Numenorean I can think of right now is the Mouth of Sauron, and catagorizing him as "Dunedain of Gondor" just seems too far-fetched.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

When I said Other Non-Edain for the Corsairs of Umbar (that don't descend from Dunedain of Gondor), I was thinking that the other race that they were mixed with was Haradrim.

But now I'm not sure - depending on what the "other" race was, the non-Dunedains would be Other Edain (as you said) or Other Non-Edain.

Sorry...

- B

P.S. Hope I don't have to edit this post four times just to make it semi-coherent, like the last one...

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

The one Black Numenorean I can think of right now is the Mouth of Sauron...

What about Herumor and Fuinur? (see quoted passage in message 21166) They were "renegades" i.e. "Black Númenoreans" who settled with the Haradrim at the end of the 2nd age. That was why I added the quote to my query, because I think there is a teeny gap in the categories as they stand - btw Elena, except for this group I think your method of categorizing Men works quite well. But these guys are hard to pin down. They are descended from those who went to Númenor; they or their antecedents also returned to M-e from Númenor (though presumably before the Downfall); they do not properly belong to the Dúnedain of Gondor and certainly not to those of the North. But they are not merely "other Edain" and cannot be considered "Men of the Shadow" (though some do refer to the Black Númenoreans as "Men of Darkness" because they were allied to Sauron).

Castamir and his descendents pose less difficulty IMO - though renegades, they still belong to the Dúnedain of Gondor. Unless you think it worthwhile to have a category for "Dúnedain - other" that could include the 2nd and 3rd Age's Black Númenoreans as well as Castamir and his descendents who joined with the Corsairs of Umbar.

BTW Lyllyn and I have discussed the possibility of cross-referencing and this is one place I think it would be useful. If we are having difficulty in pinning down the correct categories for these Men, imagine the quandary of someone searching through Resources for information on them. It would require having one main entry under one of the likely categories (for example: Herumor listed as Númenorean with a full bio; then a simple entry under Dúnedain - other (if we go with such a category) and a link to the full bio. (btw I'm not saying this would have to be the categories for him - I'm just using him as one example)

What do you think? The idea is to make Resources as user friendly as possible. It would require a little more effort on our part, but I think the end result would be more useful to the members.

~Nessime
*hoping this was even partially coherent - it's quarter to three in the morning where I am*

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Okay , I found this item about the Corsairs of Umbar in The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Heirs of Elendil:

"Minardil (1454 - 1634 III)

The rebels of Umbar had never ceased to make war on Gondor since the death of Kastamir... They had however become much mixed in blood through admission of Men of Harad, and only their chieftains, descendants of Kastamir, were of Númenórean race."


Even though Umbar was a Númenórean outpost in the late Second Age, we don't know if it remained settled by Númenóreans throughout.

So, I think that the chieftains of Umbar should be considered Dunedain of Gondor (under my proposal, since their people migrated back to Gondor), but everyone else [edit: from Umbar] should be considered Other Non-Edain.

- B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Hi Nessime!

Your post was delightfully coherent. I had to edit mine (from
only 10pm, my time) four times to get it right.

Thanks, those were the guys whose names escaped me.

I *am* uncomfortable with splitting Dunedain (it's midnight here, so I'm dispensing with the blasted diacriticals!) into "of Gondor" and "of the North", but I was, um, trying to maintain *some* consistency with the currently-existing categories... (that's a polite way of saying I was trying not to get tarred and feathered. Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

I would be much more comfortable with adding Dunedain - Other, as you suggested. I would be happy to modify the decision list to accommodate that category. (Another alternative is to just have Dunedain, period. No splitting into subcategories. See my above comment regarding black, sticky substances.)

Part of what I've been arguing for is to dump "Men of the Shadow" as a category and replace it with "Other Non-Edain". I don't believe that races or castes should be associated with levels of evilness.

And as far as cross-references, I had already suggested that because I wanted to add Elwe Singollo to the biographies when I saw it was missing, and only accidentally stumbled on Thingol...

I absolutely agree about making Resources as user friendly as possible!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Well, I'm not going to get my grand list of associations between groups of men and their categories (in my proposed scheme) done tonight.

But, I have something that might partially answer your questions. In the HA group on Yahoo, in the folder called Elena Tiriel, I uploaded a Family Tree called "Miscellaneous Men.pdf", which contains every Man who doesn't fit into the major family trees, and who has some genealogy info published in either the Hobbit, LoTR, Sil, UT, or (the last eight or so volumes of) HoME.

It's kind of a weird Family Tree, because it's, well, miscellaneous unrelated people. And it was hard to organize so many random entries, so I split it up into subtrees by Age.

But I tried to put a Caste (which is the field I'm using to contain HASA's Race and Category) in every "real person" entry. And I'm using the categories that I suggested, so you can see what I'm proposing for a lot of different types of Men.

Obviously, it won't be a complete mapping (e.g. no Black Numenoreans), but it will give you a way to start critiquing my categories.

I'll continue working on the Grand List tomorrow.

- Barbara

Speaking of critique, if you have any suggestions to make the Family Tree itself more readable, understandable, or informative, please let me know.

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I *am* uncomfortable with splitting Dunedain (it's midnight here, so I'm dispensing with the blasted diacriticals!) into "of Gondor" and "of the North", but I was, um, trying to maintain *some* consistency with the currently-existing categories... (that's a polite way of saying I was trying not to get tarred and feathered. Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Fresh out of tar and feathers.

The question is - what will work, and can we make it as easy to understand as possible?

I didn't realize your geneaology was posted, Barbara. I'm looking forward to going over it in depth!

- edit: I just looked it over quickly (all I have time for before work) and it looks like something I want in resources. I don't think we can do that during the redesign, but it's going on the wishlist. Barbara, can you email it to me? I can't copy it off the files. -

The categories can be changed (not sure about the diacritical part - have to ask Ang) to make them work.

I checked over the number of repeat names for North and South and only found one, Eldacar, which makes me feel better about condensing Dunedain - it's a possibility if people feel it will be easier to use. Once we have something hashed out we'll need to check with some more casual users (read, less geeky than we are) to see if it's understandable.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Once we have something hashed out we'll need to check with some more casual users (read, less geeky than we are) to see if it's understandable.
Excellent notion. It's possible that we may be tying ourselves in knots unnecessarily - or not. .

~Nessime

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

The question is - what will work, and can we make it as easy to understand as possible?

Most wholeheartedly agree!

I didn't realize your geneaology was posted, Barbara. I'm looking forward to going over it in depth!

It's not posted! It's not ready yet! I just put a tiny piece in the folder, Miscellaneous Men, so we (in this thread) could look at the Castes.

- edit: I just looked it over quickly (all I have time for before work) and it looks like something I want in resources. I don't think we can do that during the redesign, but it's going on the wishlist. Barbara, can you email it to me? I can't copy it off the files. -


I will be happy to send this sample to you, as long as you don't post it anywhere or make any public announcement that it's available. It's not ready for prime time! *hyperventilating*

I estimate that the completed Genealogies will have 900 individuals and 40 separate family trees.

The categories can be changed (not sure about the diacritical part - have to ask Ang) to make them work.

(Putting on my geek hat: ) I believe that if the Races and Types (Categories? what are we calling them?) are in drop-down boxes for data entry and searches, then the diacriticals will work, but if they are text fields (as the Type is now), then they will not work. Consistency is the key. Ang is the web goddess.

I checked over the number of repeat names for North and South and only found one, Eldacar, which makes me feel better about condensing Dunedain - it's a possibility if people feel it will be easier to use.

Ah, if that's the concern about splitting up the Dunedain, I can help. One of the most frequently reused names is Húrin - there are *five* of them in my Genealogies: One is an Edain, and the other four are Dúnedain - every single one from Gondor! In the Index to my Genealogies, I am going to put Race (Elf, Man, etc) and Age to help distinguish them.

I'd be happy to create a report and tell you how many duplicate names in my Genealogies would be distinguished by Gondor vs North.

Once we have something hashed out we'll need to check with some more casual users (read, less geeky than we are) to see if it's understandable.

Geeky? Moi???

- B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I checked over the number of repeat names for North and South and only found one, Eldacar, which makes me feel better about condensing Dunedain - it's a possibility if people feel it will be easier to use.

Of the approximately 380 Men that I just checked, only Eldacar and Tarondor had duplicates that would be resolved by separating Dúnadan of Gondor and Dúnadan of the North.

- B

P.S. Found a mistake in my Miscellaneous Men family tree (in the Caste field, of course!), will regenerate it and send it to you via email in the next few minutes.
(Edit: ) Done. Sent to your Yahoo address and replaced in my HA folder.

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I estimate that the completed Genealogies will have 900 individuals and 50 separate family trees.

I bow to your geekiness and ambition, Barbara.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Thank you, Loqi!

And the best part is, it's almost done!

- Barbara

P.S. I miscounted, it's probably only 40 separate Family Trees.

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming


I will be happy to send this sample to you, as long as you don't post it anywhere or make any public announcement that it's available. It's not ready for prime time! *hyperventilating*

You don't have to worry about that, since I can't download it. I can look at it, but not get it onto my hard disk. I know I'm going to love it, though, when it's done.

Ah, if that's the concern about splitting up the Dunedain, I can help.

Actually, no that wasn't it. The idea was to break up the large categories into natural divisions. Dunedain is actually one of the largest categories with the most named characters. I wasn't so concerned with distinctions between the others, because the categories are smaller.

This all came about because Ang noticed that people were using all different categorizations, and by coming with a standard at least it would be consistent.

Geeky? Moi???

Vous.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

The idea was to break up the large categories into natural divisions. Dunedain is actually one of the largest categories with the most named characters.

Understood!

Similar to the reason I have about 40 Family Trees: if I had just stuck with a single House of Elros tree, it would have sucked up half the 900 individuals in the file!

If we don't break up the Dúnedain category, then I would like to see a Man - Other Dúnedain category, then the categories will cover all cases.

This all came about because Ang noticed that people were using all different categorizations, and by coming with a standard at least it would be consistent.

I definitely support standards! And, fortunately, since the Race/Type selections lend themselves very well to drop-down boxes, *enforcing* the standards we set won't be a problem.

Is the Race/Type going to be a single drop-down box, or two separate ones?

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

And, fortunately, since the Race/Type selections lend themselves very well to drop-down boxes, *enforcing* the standards we set won't be a problem.
Exactly!


Is the Race/Type going to be a single drop-down box, or two separate ones?

Two separate - this is already operational on the new site; which means that any changes we want go on the long term wishlist for when the new site is finished, everything is switched over, and Ang has time for her nervous breakdown.

Here is how it currently exists on the new site.

Races:
Ainur
Beasts & Monsters
Dwarf
Elf
Ent
Hobbit
Man
Orc
Peredhil
Other

Ainur
- Maia
- Vala

Elf
- Noldor
- Sindar
- Teleri
- Vanyar
- Nandor /Silvan

Man
-1st Age Edain
- 2nd Age Numenoreans
- Dúnadan of Gondor
- Dúnadan of the North
- Rohirrim
- Other Edain
- Men of the Shadow


We could replace Men of the Shadow with Other non-Edain.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Okay, Loqi, this is the long-awaited answer to your post, fresh off the presses (meaning: I keep changing my mind about those pesky Drúedain):

*** Types of Men, as Proposed by Elena Tiriel ***
Revised 20 Feb 2004

"Man - Edain"

- Descendants of the Three Houses (not Drúedain)
- Elmar, grandmother of Tal-elmar (2nd Age) (PME pp424-5)

"Man - Númenórean"

- Tar-anything
- Amandil (Elendil's father)

"Man - Dúnadan of the North"

- Valandil
- Arathorn - father of Aragorn

"Man - Dúnadan of Gondor"

- Eärnil I
- Mardil Voronwë
- Imrazór the Númenórean
- Chieftains of the Corsairs of Umbar (Angamaitë, Sangahyando)

either "Man - Dúnadan of Gondor" or (preferably) "Man - Other Dúnadan"

- Black Numenoreans:
- - Witch-King of Angmar
- - Mouth of Sauron
- - Herumor & Fuinor

"Man - Other Edain"

- The Drúedain and their descendants:
- - Aghan (UT p380)
- - Ghân-buri-Ghân & his people
- - People of the marshlands of Greyflood & Isen (UT p370)

"Man - Rohirrim"

- Eorl, Éowyn

"Man - Other Non-Edain"

- Northmen & Descendants:
- - Kings of Rhovanion (Vidugavia)
- - Men of the Eótheód (Marhari, Frumgar, Léod - Eorl's father)
- - People of Dale & Laketown (Bard of Esgaroth)
- - Beornings & Woodsmen of Mirkwood (Beorn, Grimbeorn)
- Lossoth - Snowmen of Forochel
- People of Khand (Variags)
- Haradrim & Descendants:
- - Corsairs of Umbar (not chieftains)
- Easterlings (Bór, Ulfang)
- People of the White Mountains & their descendants:
- - Dunlendings (the squinty-eyed fellow at the Prancing Pony)
- - Men of Bree (Barliman Butterbur)
- - Men of Dunharrow (the Army of the Dead)

****************

Can't tell about these two - it depends upon their lineage
(but I suspect they are "Man - Other Non-Edain")

- ?? Evil Hill Men of Angmar(?) [what book are they from?]
- ?? Allies of Mordor [are there others besides Easterlings,
      Haradrim, & Variags?]

****************

So, everyone, critique away!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

We could replace Men of the Shadow with Other non-Edain.

Lyllyn


Pretty please? That's the one change that I think is most critical, to remove the taint of evil from any Man who doesn't fit in the other categories.

- Barbara

Just posted my Grand List (finally!) Let me know what you think!

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Thank you Barbara! You deserve a Glomp, that is, a very, very enthusiastic hug.

One concern: the Men of Bree seemed to be a mix of the "original inhabitants and were the descendants of the first Men that ever wandered into the West of the middle-world." (Fotr) and the people of the White Mountains.

Can't tell about these two - it depends upon their lineage
(but I suspect they are "Man - Other Non-Edain")

- ?? Evil Hill Men of Angmar(?) [what book are they from?]


They are mentioned in the Appendix A, Part 1 iii "Eriador, Arnor and the Heirs of Isildur":
"...the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar."
It's a mistake on my part to call them "of Angmar", sorry about that.

- ?? Allies of Mordor [are there others besides Easterlings,
Haradrim, & Variags?]


The slaves of the Sea of Nurn? We are not exactly sure of their nationality. But I think it's safe to put both under the "Man - Other Non-Edain" section.

We are also forgetting the Wainriders, and their cousin, the Balcoth. They're from Rhun, and settled for sometime at South East Mirkwood.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Thank you Barbara! You deserve a Glomp, that is, a very, very enthusiastic hug.

You're welcome, but you can let go now... really. **turning blue**

power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar.

Let me look into that, now that I know where to start I suspect that they are "Other Non-Edain", but will see if I can find any other information.

The slaves of the Sea of Nurn? We are not exactly sure of their nationality. But I think it's safe to put both under the "Man - Other Non-Edain" section.

Agreed. Will add them to the list.

We are also forgetting the Wainriders, and their cousin, the Balcoth. They're from Rhun, and settled for sometime at South East Mirkwood.

Ah, the Wainriders and Balchoth are easy: they are Easterlings, according to the Index of UT. I will add them to the list under Easterlings.

Will get back to you on Bree and the Hill-men...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

::Gives Barbara gentle Glomp::


Questions:


Would the men of the éotheod classify as Rohirrim?


I think some people unfamiliar with this discussion might pick one of the first ones on the list if it fits without looking further, or get confused between Edain and Other Edain - how about Edain, First Age & misc?
What other suggestions do you have for this? (I wish we could have the flow sheet, but it won't fit in the dropdown )



Do you even want to think about the Elf classification problem?
What does one do with those of mixed parentage?
I've been using whatever they are considered by 'culture', so if they live among the Noldor and have a Noldor parent - they're Noldor.


Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

While we're getting geeky, and to complicate things further, the men of Lossarnach and Lebennin:
"… in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings."

Arrgh.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Would the men of the éotheod classify as Rohirrim?
This is where the cross-referencing would come in handy. Technically they are not Rohirrim. They are the forefathers of the Rohirrim though, so people would likely look for them under that classification. Properly they belong to Edain (the éothéod belongs to the 3rd age IIRC - before they were simply part of the Northmen. It was only when Marwhini led them to the vales of Anduin that they took on the name éothéod (see notes in Cirion and Eorl in UT).

I suspect that the cross-referencing option will be needed in more than one instance, like with the elves of mixed parentage. If we try to pin them down to one or the other, someone is bound to look for them in the other possible category. This would mean more work initially, but I think it would be worthwhile in the end.

Opinions?

~Nessime

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings."
Will I have something hurled at me if I mention cross-referencing again?

~Nessime
*ducks and runs, just in case*

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

"Man - Rohirrim"

- Eorl, Éowyn

Hey, Barbara, what about Éomer as your example for the Rohirrim.
*Sheesh, there goes little sister, stealing all his thunder again.*

~Nessime


PS - Éomer's stolen *thunder* aside, I agree with Loqi; you deserve a Glomp What you've done on the geneologies is amazing.

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

It makes sense, but unlike places and things will be technically difficult. Since every entry appears on the character search dropdown, this would result in characters appearing twice.

People searching for stories would throw things at us. Big, hard things. With spikes.

We could make text entries, however, mentioning the mixed parentage.

My thought is that most people will search by name, not category. When category searching occurs, it will likely be for those categories with few named characters: Bardings, Haradrim, etc. The categories are more likely to inform someone who looked for Imrahil that he is in fact a Dúnadan.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

It makes sense, but unlike places and things will be technically difficult. Since every entry appears on the character search dropdown, this would result in characters appearing twice.
Ah - it maketh sense then, to simply be certain that the text clearly contains all the relevant information.

No, we do not want big, hard, spikey things hurled at us. I hurt enough already (I fell late Thursday on some ice and sprained my right wrist - among other things.)

~Nessime
*bowing to your superior wisdom*

PS - Question: is it possible for Ang to code it so we can choose an option not to list a character? Right now the choice is between public and members lists IIRC. A third option of no list would resolve the issue of multiples and allow us to cross-reference where needed.

Possible or no?

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

hurt enough already (I fell late Thursday on some ice and sprained my right wrist - among other things.)

I'm sorry to hear that, Nessime; I hope you feel better soon.

Question: is it possible for Ang to code it so we can choose an option not to list a character?

I don't know, I'll ask. But as set up, there isn't a specific search for categories, only the text search. The categories were meant to be informative once someone clicked on a specific bio. It makes sense that if there was any thought for the future of members clicking on the category itself, it might be different. I'll check with Ang.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Ang weighs in. 1. Menus. Yes, I can add another option that would prevent a character from appearing in any of the story search drop down menus. Are there characters that would never appear in a story? Those are the ones that should not appear in a menu. I have an evil idea (which is mine) to calculate *which* characters appear in story character lists and how often. It is rather complicated and needs some more thinking, but I'm trying to figure out how to do this. 2. Multiple categories. This *can* be done, but would require some significant re-engineering of both the Resources Character pages and the administrative area. Also, if you wanted to do multiples of multiples, oi, that would be challenging. So, just sub-categories. It would work much like adding multiple characters to a story. The main bio would be created and the character assigned to a species. Then, you would go to another form where you could select one or more of the sub-categories for that character's species. This information would be stored in a record apart from the character. It would not cause the character to double up in any list as the doubles are stored in another table. As Lyllyn said, no more substantive changes to the new code base for now. Resources is slated for another round of upgrades probably in late summer/early fall. What you're asking for here is reasonable. Ang

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Oh, dear, Nessime, I hope your wrist (and other things) feel much better soon!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

::Gives Barbara gentle Glomp::

Thank you!

Would the men of the éotheod classify as Rohirrim?

No, in my scheme all the Northmen would be Man - Other Non-Edain. They're related to the forefathers of the Edain (House of Hador), but did not make the migration into Beleriand, so they're not called Edain. And since they did not (yet) migrate to Calenardhon/Rohan, they are not yet Man - Rohirrim.

I think some people unfamiliar with this discussion might pick one of the first ones on the list if it fits without looking further, or get confused between Edain and Other Edain - how about Edain, First Age & misc?
What other suggestions do you have for this? (I wish we could have the flow sheet, but it won't fit in the dropdown )


Could I get back to you on that one? My mind is still working on researching Bree and Hillmen for Loqi (fell asleep on it last night) and by the looks of this thread, there's even more research to be done... ay!

*In general* (meaning not in response to this paragraph, because my brain is too overloaded to process it at the moment), I think we should avoid using Ages in the categories. Note that my proposed categories don't have them.

"Other Edain" has, as far as I could see yesterday, *at most* one entry, the Druedain (and that's just because I can't figure out what to do with them -- that's another quandary/discussion.) Most-used categories should always go to the top of drop-down boxes, least-used ones at the bottom.

If that even came close to answering your question, it was an accident... Sorry! *On overload*

Do you even want to think about the Elf classification problem?What does one do with those of mixed parentage?
I've been using whatever they are considered by 'culture', so if they live among the Noldor and have a Noldor parent - they're Noldor.


Ah, but I already did think about this! Had to, for the Genealogies. Celebrían (1/4 Vanyar, 1/4 Noldor, 1/2 Sindar - or is it Teleri?) made me do it! Tolkien seemed to assign the Elf type based upon the father's lineage (e.g. Galadriel being considered a Noldo), so that was my default action in the Genealogies. Voila! Celebrían is listed as Sindar. (Of course, because I'm dealing with Family Trees, you can get as much detail about the mix as you want. And then some...)

A related question in my Genealogies: which family tree do the children of a mixed couple go with? Usually it's the father, but sometimes it makes more sense to go with the mother. E.g. Lúthien Tinúviel goes with the House of Elwë (even though her mother is a Maia), but so does her son Dior (even though his father Beren Erchamion was of the House of Bëor). Since Dior was raised with his mother's people and became the next King of Doriath, it seemed fitting.

I think my choices amount to what you said: whatever they are considered by 'culture'...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

"… in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings." Which book is this from? I wonder if they are related to the people of the White Mountains, ancestors of the Dunlendings? Whether or not, it sounds like the same issue (mixed blood) as with the Bree men. I'm still putting together my research on them and will post it when I finish... (funny how it put me to sleep last night...) - B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Technically they are not Rohirrim. They are the forefathers of the Rohirrim though, so people would likely look for them under that classification. Properly they belong to Edain (the éothéod belongs to the 3rd age IIRC - before they were simply part of the Northmen. It was only when Marwhini led them to the vales of Anduin that they took on the name éothéod (see notes in Cirion and Eorl in UT).

Yes, the Northmen are related to the forefathers of the Edain, but they are not considered Edain. See my previous post for my proposed classification.

The reason that the distinction between Types (either my proposed ones or existing ones) is so difficult to describe is that we are not dealing with racial differences. Really, all the Northmen, the Rohirrim, the Edain, the Númenóreans, and the Dúnedain (of any flavor) are the same type, whereas, say, Easterlings, Dunlendings, and Haradrim are one or more other types. (And the pesky Drúedain are also another type; they are specifically described as being a different RACE as the Edain, but were considered Edain by the Elves. I will never forgive Tolkien for that one...)

I'll stop ranting now.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Nessime,

And I was trying to be nice! I put in one token woman - because Tolkien gave us so few to work with!

Okay, I added Éomer to the list. (And kept Éowyn...)

Thanks for the compliment!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

My thought is that most people will search by name, not category. When category searching occurs, it will likely be for those categories with few named characters: Bardings, Haradrim, etc.

I think you're right about that, Lyllyn.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Yes, the Northmen are related to the forefathers of the Edain, but they are not considered Edain. See my previous post for my proposed classification.

I knew about connection to the House of Hador, that they were probably descended from some of that kin who had not migrated west, but I was almost certain that they were referred to somewhere in Tolkien's writing as being Edain. I could be wrong though. I'd have to go back through my notes on the Éothéod.

And the pesky Drúedain are also another type; they are specifically described as being a different RACE as the Edain, but were considered Edain by the Elves. I will never forgive Tolkien for that one...

He'd no doubt have a good laugh at our expense if he could see us puzzling over all this.

Of course, we have to consider the possibility that the Elves were wrong about the Drúedain.

~Nessime

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

OT question for Lyllyn, since you asked about the Éotheod:

A couple weeks ago, I wrote up some notes, with references, about the ancestry of the first Kings of Rohan. Mostly it is trying to justify why I consider Marhari/Marhrwini/Forthwini and Frumgar/Fram to be ancestors of Léod and Eorl, even though Tolkien wasn't explicit about it.

Is that something you might like to publish? If so, I'll send it to you via email and you can decide whether it's worth publishing and where.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Is that something you might like to publish?

Send it along!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

"Other Edain" has, as far as I could see yesterday, *at most* one entry, the Druedain (and that's just because I can't figure out what to do with them -- that's another quandary/discussion.)

I sympathize with the brain-fry, a frequent condition for me. The problem I was thinking about was how those entering data would distinguish between 'Edain' and 'Other Edain'.

Ah well, if it was easy they wouldn't need us (geeks) to attempt to figure it out.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

The problem I was thinking about was how those entering data would distinguish between 'Edain' and 'Other Edain'.

Agreed.

You know, if my brain weren't fried, I'd probably suggest collapsing the Other Edain and Other Non-Edain (currently Men of Shadow) into one category: Other.

But since my brain is fried, I can't even come close to figuring out what the implications would be.

But it is true that in all that long list of peoples I gave yesterday, only one possibly fit into the Other Edain category, and a LOT fit into the Other Non-Edain category. If we did collapse them, I would just close my eyes and toss the Drúedain in without worrying about them.

But the brain IS fried, and there's probably good reasons why that would be a bad idea...

Back to work on the Bree folk, Hill men, and men of, um, Lossarnach and, um, Lebennin (had to check my list 3 times just to get that last sentence typed...)

Being a geek is such a pain in the neck sometimes...

- Barbara

PS will send you the notes on the ancestry of the kings of rohan tonight...

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I was almost certain that they were referred to somewhere in Tolkien's writing as being Edain. I could be wrong though. I'd have to go back through my notes on the Éothéod.

If you find it, please let me know which book it's in. I have all of HoME for my research, but there's lots there that I haven't read.

He'd no doubt have a good laugh at our expense if he could see us puzzling over all this.

Yes, indeed!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Loqi,

Still working on my answer about the Men of Bree... trying to work out time lines between the two passages in LoTR.

This is a stupid question, but my brain is *totally* fried: what are the Dark Years in this context? I thought they were the First Age, when Morgoth was powerful, but that doesn't seem right... Does JRRT mean the Second Age here? (per The Tale of Years, beginning of The Second Age section...)

This is the reason I'm asking (I know you're familiar with this quote!):

But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree...

- Barbara

Edit: Found the answer: The Dark Years are the years of domination by Sauron in the Second Age. I had the wrong bad guy in mind...

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Yup, it is the Second Age, because of Sauron's domination, and also because of what is little known to the Elves about it.

I'm sorry all the trouble my question had caused!

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Okay, here's my current thinking on the Bree men. In the quotes below, I have highlighted the phrases that contributed to my theories:

[Elder Days: First Age]
[Kings returned over the Great Sea: 600 II (but it was probably much later, at least 1200 II, when they began to make permanent havens, that they explored as far inland as Bree)]

The Men of Bree were brown-haired, broad, and rather short, cheerful and independent: they belonged to nobody but themselves; but they were more friendly and familiar with Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, and other inhabitants of the world about them than was (or is) usual with Big People. According to their own tales they were the original inhabitants and were the descendants of the first Men that ever wandered into the West of the middle-world. Few had survived the turmoils of the Elder Days; but when the Kings returned again over the Great Sea they had found the Bree-men still there, and they were still there now, when the memory of the old Kings had faded into the grass.

In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.

The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 1, Ch 9, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

[Dark Years: years of domination by Sauron in Second Age]

Alien, too, or only remotely akin [to Adûnaic and Westron], was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their own speech and manners; a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim.

The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age: Of Men

My thinking:

Bree men of the First Age:
They claim kinship with the first Men that ever wandered into the West. Let us assume that they were referring to the Edain. (One could argue that if the, say, Dunlendings moved north and found a relatively empty land, they would claim that they were the first, which of course would be carried through their legends to future generations. But I'm not arguing that.)

Bree men of the Second Age:
The Dunlendings begin to arrive in the "empty lands". Assuming that Bree remained settled throughout, they probably met a small remnant ("few had survived...") of Edain descendants in the Bree area. I get the impression that there were more Dunlendings than Edain, and that they intermarried ("from them came the Men of Bree"). I believe that the bloodline became too much mixed to be considered Edain any more.

Bree men of the Third Age:
They don't seem to recognize a kinship with the Rangers (whom we know to be descended directly from the Edain): they are friendly to everyone *except* the Rangers. They don't recognize the tales of old days that the Rangers tell. They look different from the Rangers.

From all of this information and speculation, I believe that the Bree men of the First Age can be considered "Man - Edain", but from the Second Age on they would be more properly described as "Man - Other Non-Edain".

The only Bree man I could remember was Barliman Butterbur, and I believe that using him as my example introduced a Third Age bias into my original thinking, for which I apologize.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Will I have something hurled at me if I mention cross-referencing again? Not by me! (And I'm a notoriously bad shot, anyway...) - B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

They claim kinship with the first Men that ever wandered into the West. Let us assume that they were referring to the Edain.

As well as those who turned back to Eriador? Some from the House of Hador and Bëor, I believe.

I think your theories are pretty good. So the People of Bree will be considered as "Man - Other Non-Edain", but some what different from the People of the White Mountains.

~Loqi
*moves to glomp Barbara*
*pauses*
Chocolate and a pat on the back are safer. ^__^

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

So the People of Bree will be considered as "Man - Other Non-Edain", but some what different from the People of the White Mountains.

Yes... they [edit: the Men of Bree] are of mixed blood, but more Dunlending than Edain.

And note that I suggested that Bree folk of the First Age should be considered "Man - Edain".

Chocolate and a pat on the back are safer. ^__^

Mmmmm, chocolate.........

- B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

They claim kinship with the first Men that ever wandered into the West. Let us assume that they were referring to the Edain.


As well as those who turned back to Eriador? Some from the House of Hador and Bëor, I believe.

Fried brain... I don't understand this question. Could you elaborate?

Sorry!

- B

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

I was specifically adding onto this part of the passage:They claim kinship with the first Men that ever wandered into the West.

In the Silmarillion (Ch.17 "Of the coming of Men into the West"), some of the Three Houses of Edain talked going back into Eriador. Bereg of the House of Bëor and Amlach grandson of Marach (ancestor of Hador) thought that all their travelling to the West, searching for the Light was fruitless.

"Bereg led a thousand of the people of Bëor away southwards, and they passed out of the songs of those days."
But Amlach backed out, and "... those of his people who were of like mind with Bereg chose a new leader, and they went back over the mountains into Eriador, and are forgotten."

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

Ah! Yes, I remember that from the Sil.

So, it wasn't a question? I don't have to do any research to answer it?

*Whew*

Still working on Hill men & men of Lossarnach & Lebennin...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Races and types - changes coming

So, it wasn't a question? I don't have to do any research to answer it?

No, and no. Don't worry about it.

Still working on Hill men & men of Lossarnach & Lebennin...

Take a break, you deserve one.

~Loqi

 

 

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