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Discussing: Lineage

Lineage

Anyone more informed than I care to speculate on the possible ancestry, or to extrapolate a plausible one, of our dear Glorfindel? Dim Genesis's Nuzgul is rubbing against my legs and purring, but I need plenty more information if I'm to even consider a task so monumental...

-Aerlinnel

 

 

Re: Lineage

There's no certain ancestry for Gofi, but let me quote an excerpt from Lyllyn's Glorfindel Factsheet that might be helpful:

Who Are His Ancestors and Relatives?

This is another mystery. Since golden hair is uncommon in elves outside certain families, where did Glorfindel get his hair? He lived in Gondolin, which would make him Noldorin, or possibly Sindarin. Tolkien clearly refers to Glorfindel as " that fair one of the Noldoli." He is not listed in the family tree of Finarfin, of whom Tolkien said "Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his descendants had golden hair." Since the Vanyar had golden hair, the best possibility is that he is the descendant of a Noldo and Vanya marriage back in Tirion.


Basically, you can make up Glorfindel's whole family and it'll still be canon. ^_^

More speculation about Gofi can be found in Michael Martinez's article about the two Glorfindels theory, although I'm quite fond of just one Glorfindel. Makes for a kick ass character and gives a real reason for the Witchking to fear him.

 

 

Re: Lineage

That's a great factsheet, Lyllyn. Très helpful
What about Lalwen? She's looking all canonically alone and childless. Might Glorfindel hang his leaf there on the family tree?
"Alone among the Noldorin princes [Finarfin] and his descendants had golden hair." (Note *princes* = sons of Finwë, not including daughters?)
From FotR: Glorfindel is an "Elf-lord of a house of princes" and one of the "lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas".

-Aerlinnel

 

 

Re: Lineage

Thank you Aerlinnel. I hope we start to get more factsheets up.

I didn't even consider Lalwen. It's an interesting speculation. Would you mind if I added that to the factsheet (credited to you, of course)?

In the course of looking for the reference, I realized an table of contents (or better yet an index) of the HoME series would be very helpful. Anyone know if one exists?

Yllyn

 

 

Re: Lineage

I vaguely remember hearing that there is newly an index to the entire series - but it may only be available in the UK at this time? Not sure... but you could try browsing amazon.co.uk and see. It would probably be by Christopher Tolkien...

Cel, sorry her memory isn't better

 

 

Re: Lineage

Certainly, Yllyn, and I'd be honoured!

Took your advice, Cel, and lookee what I found!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007137435/qid=1038949434/sr=1-81/ref=sr_1_2_81/026-9325985-1266835.
Yes, that's me drooling. Sorry about that *Why* must I live in the US??

-Aerlinnel

 

 

Re: Lineage

Try this, Yllyn - it's a TOC, not an index, but I've found it very helpful all the same.

"A detailed list of the contents of the 12 HoMe-volumes and Unfinished Tales"
http://forodrim.letsrock.nu/daeron/md_hm.html

 

 

Re: Lineage

Perfect! Thanks so much for the link.

Yllyn

 

 

Re: Lineage

Is this in the URL section? If not, Az, can you post it in there under Tolkien Resources?

Thanks much,

Ang

 

 

Re: Lineage

Your wish is my command, ma'am - it wasn't in there, it is now. What a fab toy, I didn't know about that one...

 

 

Re: Lineage

(Note *princes* = sons of Finwë, not including daughters?)

Hmm. This is one of those messy semantic ones.

"Prince" is a word with a lot of meanings. We use it today only to mean the son of a reigning monarch, but it actually can mean:

1) any ruler - qv. Machiavelli's "The Prince," the address or "envoiye" in epigrammatic poems, "O prince who would think to &c &c", "Put not your faith in princes," (just as in older writings "captains" means any military commander of high rank, "the captains and the kings depart,") and doesn't preclude any other politcal or social status; eg, one can be both a Duke and a Prince by this definition, like the d'Estes. (A CEO can be considered a prince, in fact, often far more so than any political ruler, since there are elements of "aegis" or "mana" to the tycoon's power, and often it is dynastic.) Isabella d'Este wasn't the son, or daughter, of a king, but in her day she was often referred to as a Prince, because she was most definitely in charge of things.

2) a minor ruler, vassal to a greater, the head of a "Principality" - this is seen still in countries which no longer belong to greater imperial unions, like Liechtenstein or Monaco. This is not by any strict heirarchy of size or wealth - many counts ended up being more powerful in terms of territory than even their kings, and the jockeying for these things has created some odd historical accidents on the maps.

3) a member of a noble family - for instance, the characters in Tolstoy, as in imperial Russia pretty much every near relative of the Czar was accorded the rank of prince or princess. Doesn't necessarily mean any territory other than a household, if that.

It isn't in old usages always gender-specific, either -- in these contexts it's interchangeable with the feminine form. The word "prince" comes from the "pri" root, same as in primary or prime or principal - it means "first" or "foremost." It doesn't always have a heriditary component (though usually does) because plenty of sword-made rulers have always existed, and often didn't succeed in founding a dynasty.

(So when it says in Silm. that Galadriel was the only woman to stand up with the princes, all that means is that Elenwe and Aredhel et al didn't get in there and pound the council tables and say "Yes, let's go!" not that Galadriel isn't counted as a "prince" in the broader senses. After all, only Feanor and his half-brothers were, in that situation, actually a "prince" by our modern definition - at least at that point - but every one extends it to Fingon et al automatically.)

But then it gets even messier -- he's "a lord of a princely house" -- and now there's no limits on where you can place him. Because this can mean any number of more or less distant connections - even by marriage or fealty. He could be a cousin of the Finweans, he could have gotten his blond hair from a Vanyar parent or grandparent *not* Indis, a parent could have been a counselor or married into the family or both (not uncommon) of one of the Finweans.

He could even have been full Vanyar himself, and just gotten a job with Finwe -- I know this sounds flippant, but this is what being a page or counsellor entails -- by coming along with Indis' household. (Huge cultural upheavals, many of them permanent, are known in this world to have attended the coming of "foreign queens" -- look at the number of Austrians who are genetically of Spanish descent, and look it, and the high baroque art style we now think of as typically Austrian, and of course the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, just to name a few examples, not even touching the changes in Spain, and in France, which originate back more than four centuries to the Hapsburg connections.)

What we can say for certain, however, is that he would have been deeply involved on a first-name basis with all the movers and shakers in Tirion during the Time of the Trees. Which gives the fanfic writer lots of latitude!


 

 

Re: Lineage

(sing-song: ) Guess what I got!

I am hereby offering up my services as real-live HoME index referencer for anyone who needs it. I love my pretty new book!

-Aerlinnel

 

 

Re: Lineage

(sing-song: ) Guess what I got!
Go you! Whole series?

I am hereby offering up my services as real-live HoME index referencer for anyone who needs it. I love my pretty new book!

Before you change your mind and come to your senses, yes! Even though I don't need anything specific right now.
BTW, what does this mean? Is there an index to the entire series? Or do you have to go through book by book?

Lyllyn, who is slowly aquiring bits and pieces.

 

 

Re: Lineage

Where and how did you get it, Aerlinnel? Is it for sale in the US?

Cel, envious

 

 

Re: Lineage

Is there an index to the entire series?

Sorry, I was vague. Yes, there is, and that's what I got. Am still working on the entire series, although I'm up to (I think) seven of the twelve.

Celandine: ordered it from Amazon.co.uk, about twelve-thirteen pounds to have it shipped stateside. I'm looking forward to seeing this on my credit card statement

-Aerlinnel

 

 

Re: Lineage

I am hereby offering up my services as real-live HoME index referencer for anyone who needs it. I love my pretty new book!

What is the name of the index? I haven't found it on Amazon's site yet.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Lineage

It's 'The History of Middle-earth Index'. Here's the link at www.amazon.co.uk, if that helps.

 

 

Re: Lineage

Thanks, Altariel. Ordered!

Interestingly, it is only on the Amazon UK page, not the US version.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Lineage

Heh, I need to get some kind of cut of the royalties!

I have a vague and possibly unfounded suspicion that it hasn't been published (yet?) in the US, but I have no idea if that's true or, if it is, why.

 

 

Re: Lineage

I'd heard of it over at TORn last fall, actually, and I believe was told then that it hadn't been published in the US. I have no idea why not, though. Perhaps eventually?

Cel

 

 

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