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Discussing: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

Sorting through all the variations of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn makes my head spin.

Is there any consensus among the cognoscenti on when the mallorns first grew there?

Galadriel sings:  "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:

...

And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.

Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,

In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion."

Is she saying that she made the mallorns in Valinor before she left and brought the seeds with her? Is this some other golden tree?

Or is she saying that she made the mallorns in M-e as a sort of tribute to the golden tree in Eldamar? 

And did she make them grow when she escaped from Eregion? Or had she crossed the mountains and planted them earlier, before they made the Rings of Power in Eregion?  Or are they a Third Age phenomena and only got there after her sojourn in Imladris and Belfalas?

 <headdesk>  Does anyone have any clues on when they started growing in Lorien?

Gwynnyd 

 

 

Re: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

It feels a bit odd posting this in a research forum, but Tenshi Androgynous wrote a drabble on the first mallorn being given to Galadriel:

http://www.henneth-annun.net/members/challenge/chapter_view.cfm?NGID=185&STID=3532&SPOrdinal=1

I wouldn't put it forth as any kind of a source, except for this was a topic that interested me and TA and I had a conversation about it. And she had some sort of source for mallorn trees not being native to Middle-earth. But I'll be durned if I can remember what said source was.

Which doesn't get you any closer to getting a real source, I know. But it's something.

Marta

 

 

Re: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

Sorting through all the variations of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn makes my head spin.

You and me both!

Or is she saying that she made the mallorns in M-e as a sort of tribute to the golden tree in Eldamar?

Yes, I interpret her song as being a tribute to the mellyrn growing in the Blessed Realm. We do know that they grew on Tol Eressëa, and I am assuming that they also grew on the mainland, since I believe Galadriel was associated with Aman, rather than Eressëa, before the Noldor Exile. Edit: Oh, DUH! It says in the song that they grew near Tirion..... never mind!

We do know that the mellyrn of Lothlórien came from Eressëa via Númenor and then Lindon, so it might have been as early as the Second Age when Galadriel planted them. (But, see my first pseudo-answer!)

Anyway, here are all the quotes about mallorn/mellyrn/malinornë that I could find in UT, including some suggesting that Tolkien had at some point intended that they also grew in Gondolin:

"A description of Gondolin was to follow, of the stairs up to its high platform, and its great gate; of the mounds (this word is uncertain) of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees; of the Place of the Fountain, the King's tower on a pillared arcade, the King's house, and the banner of Fingolfin. ...

It may be noted that later mentions of mallorns in Númenor, Lindon, and Lothlórien do not suggest, though they do not deny, that those trees flourished in Gondolin in the Elder Days...."

Unfinished Tales, Part 1, Ch 1, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin: Notes, Note 31

"At the centre of the Bay of Eldanna was the most beautiful of all the havens of Númenor, Eldalondë the Green; and hither in the earlier days the swift white ships of the Eldar of Eressëa came most often.

All about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressëa. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolairë and lairelossë, nessamelda, vardarianna, taniquelassë, and yavannamirë with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents and all that country was full of blended fragrance; therefore it was called Nísimaldar, the Fragrant Trees. Many of them were planted and grew, though far less abundantly, in other regions of Númenor; but only here grew the mighty golden tree malinornë reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressëa itself. Its bark was silver and smooth, and its boughs somewhat upswept after the manner of the beech; but it never grew save with a single trunk. Its leaves, like those of the beech but greater, were pale green above and beneath were silver glistering in the sun; in the autumn they did not fall, but turned to pale gold. In the spring it bore golden blossom in clusters like a cherry, which bloomed on during the summer; and as soon as the flowers opened the leaves fell, so that through spring and summer a grove of malinornë was carpeted and roofed with gold, but its pillars were of grey silver. Its fruit was a nut with a silver shale; and some were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Númenor, to King Gil-galad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlórien beside the River Anduin, until the High Elves at last left Middle-earth; but they did not reach the height or girth of the great groves of Númenor."

Unfinished Tales, Part 2, Ch 1, A Description of the Island of Númenor

"In a note to the text it is explained that Lórinand was the Nandorin name of this region (afterwards called Lórien and Lothlórien), and contained the Elvish word meaning "golden light": "valley of gold." The Quenya form would be Laurenandë, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. Both here and elsewhere the meaning of the name is explained by reference to the golden mallorn-trees of Lothlórien; but they were brought there by Galadriel (for the story of their origin see p.176), and in another, later, discussion the name Lórinand is said to have been itself a transformation, after the introduction of the mallorns, of a yet older name Lindórinand, "Vale of the Land of the Singers." Since the Elves of this land were in origin Teleri, there is here no doubt present the name by which the Teleri called themselves, Lindar, "the Singers." From many other discussions of the names of Lothlórien, to some extent at variance among themselves, it emerges that all the later names were probably due to Galadriel herself, combining different elements: laurë "gold," nan(d) "valley," ndor "land," tin- "sing"; and in Laurelindórinan "Valley of Singing Gold" (which Treebeard told the Hobbits was the earlier name) deliberately echoing the name of the Golden Tree that grew in Valinor, "for which, as is plain, Galadriel's longing increased year by year to, at last, an overwhelming regret."

Unfinished Tales, Part 2, Ch 4, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn: Notes, Note 5

Hope this helps... though, without really knowing the definitive timeline of Galadriel's presence in Lothlórien, it's still a matter of conjecture.

- Barbara

Edit: P.S. Some dates concerning Tar-Aldarion:
first voyage to Middle-earth: 725-727 Second Age
becomes King of Númenor: 883 (when he earns the Tar-)
last voyage to Middle-earth: about the end of the first millennium
dies: 1098

 

 

Re: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

Hope this helps... though, without really knowing the definitive timeline of Galadriel's presence in Lothlórien, it's still a matter of conjecture.

I'm trying to catch up on drabble requests I missed.  I have this idea, and I think I may just write it up and let the purists of whatever ilk be annoyed by/possiblycharmed by/or simply ignore it.

Thank you so much fo rthe references. They do help.

Gwynnyd 

 

 

Re: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

It may be noted that later mentions of mallorns in Númenor, Lindon, and Lothlórien do not suggest, though they do not deny, that those trees flourished in Gondolin in the Elder Days...."

 
I am so not a First Age detail person....  and I have another question.  Gondolin was the 'hidden city', right? Would Celeborn and/or Thranduil (Oropher's son) have been to Gondolin and been able to see the mallorns there? Or seen mallorns anywhere else? Am I correct that neither of them had been to Numenor (that we know of anyway) or Tirion, and so could not have seen them there?

Thanks in advance to Elena Tiriel or anyone else who can help! 

Gwynnyd 

 

 

Re: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

I have this idea, and I think I may just write it up and let the purists of whatever ilk be annoyed by/possiblycharmed by/or simply ignore it.

Given your talent with words, I'm expecting to be charmed by it.... but no pressure, really....

And you're welcome!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: When did the mallorns first grow in Lorien?

I am so not a First Age detail person....

Same here, unless I'm researching a specific Research Library entry...

Gondolin was the 'hidden city', right?

Yes. IIRC, it worked like the Hotel California... you could visit any time you want (assuming you could find it), but you could never leave.... However, there did seem to be a blanket exemption for Eagles....

Would Celeborn and/or Thranduil (Oropher's son) have been to Gondolin and been able to see the mallorns there? Or seen mallorns anywhere else?

I believe not. They were Doriath kind of guys, and I have seen no mention of mellyrn there.... Edit: Though some stories of the mellyrn might have spread to Doriath -- maybe by Eagle-gram? But that seems unlikely...

Am I correct that neither of them had been to Numenor (that we know of anyway) or Tirion, and so could not have seen them there?

Yes, I believe that Elwë (Thingol) was the only Sindar to visit Aman and return. And I know of no Elf who visited Númenor from Middle-earth, much less returned, though this purist never objects to well-written fanfic depicting Elrond at Elros' death bed..... ;)

HTH!

- Barbara, who has been missing in action at HASA for several months, and is grateful for a question that she can actually answer, to get back into the swing of things....

 

 

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