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Discussing: Forms of address for Grima

Forms of address for Grima

How would a servant in the Meduseld address to Grima?

I've been having an OFC refer to him as just "Grima", but it's suddenly occurred to me that she probably wouldn't do that. I don't think he's actually a lord in the landed-and-titled sense, but I'm inclined to think that servants would address him as "lord".
Anyone have any other options? Beside "that creepy guy"?
Thanks!

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

Hi EdorasLass,

When I have referred to him in fics I have usually called him "Councillor Grima" the same way you would refer to "Lord Imrahil" or "Lord Denethor" if you were addressing the landed gentry.

So maybe an Old English form of that? "Raethbora", perhaps?

Btw, I don't have any canonical basis for this practice; it's my own fanon, but it did seem like the reasonable thing to do.

Marta

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

Hi EdorasLass

There are a few of other Old English options you might use. All the definitions are from the online version of the Bosworth-Toller Anglo-Saxon dictionary:

Ealdor is an "elder, chief, governor, prince"
Ealdorman is an "elderman, ALDERMAN, senator, chief, duke, a nobleman of the highest rank, and holding an office inferior only to that of the king" (my note: "ealdorman" was the term usually used in Anglo-Saxon times for an Earl).
ealdorþegn (or ealdorthane) is "the principal thane or servant" (meaning "chief minister").

My personal favourite would be ealdorþegn/ealdorthane, as my feeling is that this essentially means the most important government official, rather than a noble with a hereditary position.

HTH

Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

So many choices!

I may end up going with "Councilor" simply to save myself some italics and special characters. Lord knows I've got enough of those in there already -- Rohirrim, I swear.

And now...editing 15 chapters. *sigh*


Thanks, Marta & Liz!

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

So many choices!

I may end up going with "Councilor" simply to save myself some italics and special characters.


BTW:  Tolkien uses the spelling "counsellor" if that's any help, as in "Let your counsellor Gríma keep all thing till your return." 

Uhmm... anything I can do that's helpful?  Hmmm... chocolate to keep the muses happy.. or perhaps a few judicious waves of a cattle prod for less than cooperative muses?  Hot toddies to make sure you get a good night's rest?  Espresso in the morning to get the writer awake and productive?  Hmmmm? 

~Silli

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

BTW: Tolkien uses the spelling "counsellor" if that's any help

Single l (councilor/counselor) is US spelling. Double l (coucillor/counsellor) is UK spelling.

There's also a subtle difference between councillor and counsellor, according to my dictionary. A councillor is "a member of a council" while a counsellor is "a person who gives counsel; adviser".

So a councillor probably should be a counsellor but a counsellor may not necessarily be a councillor.

As Theoden doesn't seen to have a "Council" in the way Denethor does, Tolkien is (of course!) right to use "counsellor".

HTH

Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

anything I can do that's helpful? Hmmm... chocolate to keep the muses happy.

Why Silli, is there some reason you'd like me to get to working? *innocent* Don't worry -- this issue isn't holding up the next chapter.

But if you could fix my whompin' sinus headache, that'd be great.

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

Single l (councilor/counselor) is US spelling. Double l (coucillor/counsellor) is UK spelling.

I was just saying the other day how I tend to put double l where there's only supposed to be one - "Marshal" being the most common example.

And I'm glad you said that about councilor/counsellor -- I was thinking there was a difference, but thanks to the aforementioned sinus issues, I couldn't remember what it was. Thanks!

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

Liz wrote:  So a councillor probably should be a counsellor but a counsellor may not necessarily be a councillor.


*snork* 

I find it amusing that Grima is the one who refers to himself as the counsellor while all else refer to him as the Wormtongue.  Playing with language to suggest self-perception/self-deception and point of view as cleverly as ever is Mr. Tolkien.   

Since Grima is the one who calls himself the counsellor, I can certainly see him encouraging others to speak of him as such.  Such a ... humble... designation, denoting no formal status nor... truly... any aspiration for one.  But... it speaks so eloquently of the affection and ... dare I say it... esteem with which the King holds him.  Don't you think? 

And speaking of word play:  Watch out... you started it!  

Will you help me pare this pair of pears? 

Once we reach the isle, I'll walk up the aisle.  

I can not tie a knot for naught. 

The Battle of the Somme was the sum of all battles for some. 

She wails for the whales of Wales.     

I cannot bear to look upon a bare bear. (though that's cheating as one of those is a homonyn, isn't it, not a homophone)

It will be long ere I breathe the same air as the heir. 

Aye there, cap'n, I got it in me eye!

How dare you deign to suggest that Dáin was a Dane!  (To add a bit of Tolkien at last.)


EdorasLass wrote: Why Silli, is there some reason you'd like me to get to working?*innocent*

Uhm... weeelllll.... no..  I suppose not.  *turn toe in the dirt* *pathetic blink* *sniff*  


But if you could fix my whompin' sinus headache, that'd be great.


Begone, thou foul demons of dust, thou monsters of mold, thou putrescence of pollen!!!  I am the wielder of the Holy Nasal Spray and the servant of the Active Ingredients of Sudafedrin!!! I cast thee out into the far reaches beyond the Circles of the World!!!!  The Excitation of Histamines shall not avail you!  Go!  I say!   

There! 

*earnest blink* 

That work?

~Silli  Marilli

p.s. Can't believe my father laughed and exclaimed "Perfect!" when I told him my online name!  *huff*  Whatever could he have meant by that?   

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

I find it amusing that Grima is the one who refers to himself as the counsellor while all else refer to him as the Wormtongue.
True, there are a number of places where Gríma refers to himself as Théoden's counsellor.

But so does Théoden, who is also, interestingly enough, the only one according to what Gandalf said in King of the Golden Hall who does not refer to Gríma as Wormtongue:
'...Do I not guess rightly that you hold him [i.e. Éomer] prisoner, by the counsel of Gríma, of him that all save you name the Wormtongue?'
When Gríma was brought before Théoden (after Gandalf "healed" Théoden), the king said:
'Here comes my counsellor.'

At that moment Háma came again from the hall. Behind him cringing between two other men, came Gríma the Wormtongue...
(LotR: TTT: Book Three: Chapter VI - The King of the Golden Hall)
And when a scout reported that Gríma had been seen "going northward with a company of Orcs," Théoden commented:
'It will go ill with Wormtongue*, if Gandalf comes upon him,' said Théoden. 'Nonetheless I miss now both my counsellors, the old and the new...'
(LotR: TTT: Book Three: Chapter VII - Helm's Deep) *addenda: I never really noticed that Théoden, now that he has been freed from Gríma's influence, refers to him as Wormtongue. Very subtle of Tolkien...
Aragorn also acknowledges that Gríma had been Théoden's counsellor:
'...I should like to know who this Wormtongue is. Was he really the king's counsellor?' [Pippin speaking]
'He was,' said Aragorn; 'and also Saruman's spy and servant in Rohan...'
(LotR: TTT: Book Three: Chapter IX - Flotsam and Jetsam)
So it is not Gríma alone who names himself counsellor in Tolkien's writing.

Tolkien also refers to Gríma as Théoden's counsellor in UT: Part Three: Chapter V - The Battles of the Fords of Isen:
In any case Théoden's sense of weakness and dependence on Gríma was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions...

When Théoden became, as it seemed, prematurely old, this situation continued, and there was no effective central command: a state of affairs encouraged by his counsellor Gríma.
Interestingly, Tolkien also uses the term when delineating Éomer's role in the events that followed:
After the healing of Théoden by Gandalf, the situation changed. The King again took command in person, Éomer was reinstated, and became virtually first Marshal, ready to take command if the King fell or his strength failed; but the title was not used, and in the presence of the King in arms he could only advise and not issue orders. The part he actually played was thus much the same as that of Aragorn: a redoubtable champion among the champions of the King.*

When the Full Muster was made in Harrowdale,...Éomer remained in this position, riding with the King (as commander of the leading Èored, the King's Company) and acting as his chief counsellor. [emphasis mine]
(UT: Part Three: Chapter V - The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Appendix i)
From what Tolkien wrote, it would seems likely that Théoden had been accustomed to having more than one counsellor (note that in the preceeding quote Éomer is referred to as his chief counsellor), but that as Gríma's power over the king grew, "[it] was his [i.e. Gríma's] policy to bring his chief opponents into discredit with Théoden, and if possible to get rid of them." (UT - Battles of the Fords of Isen)

I can see lots of room for speculation about just how Gríma managed to get rid of those who opposed him, especially considering what he eventually managed to do (with the aid of Saruman's forces) to Théodred, and to Éomer (I shudder to think what the final outcome of Éomer's imprisonment might have been had Gandalf not come to Edoras and healed the king).

~Nessime

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

I am the wielder of the Holy Nasal Spray and the servant of the Active Ingredients of Sudafedrin!!! I cast thee out into the far reaches beyond the Circles of the World!!!! The Excitation of Histamines shall not avail you! Go! I say!

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha -- oddly enough, I think it did work. Even though it took til about 2pm USA CST for it to take hold.


And btw, I got to workin'. Can't guarantee you're gonna like it, though.

 

 

Re: Forms of address for Grima

I can see lots of room for speculation about just how Gríma managed to get rid of those who opposed him, especially considering what he eventuallymanaged to do (with the aid of Saruman's forces) to Théodred

*whistles* *innocent*

 

 

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