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Discussing: Celeborn in Doriath

Celeborn in Doriath

Okay, I'm attempting a monster-fic about Celeborn's life in Doriath, and (obviously) have a few questions to ask - - Celeborn and Galathil. Twins? Does anyone have any idea? I'd llike to think they're twins, firstly because of genetics - twins run in the family, and if their descendants (Celebrian, Elwing) could have twins, then that would probably mean there's some more twins in the family somewhere, and also because...because it makes things more interesting. - How much light is there? Is it like a perpetual night with stars before the Moon and Sun rise? - Their father. Does anyone know where he would be - in Doriath, not in Doriath... - Would they be quite friendly and on good terms with Luthien? I think so, but wanted to be sure of this. Noldo



Re: Celeborn in Doriath

1- Twins. Personally, I don't imagine them as twins. I imagine Galathil as older. But if your muses are saying twins, go with twins. I don't think there's any canon saying otherwise (though I could be wrong). 2- Light. The stars are always out, and IMO (or in my imagination), they're brighter during the first age because of their realtively recent creation. [Edit: Plus, it's not like they didn't know how to make fire or anything.] 3- Father. I would say that if he's not necessary, then he might have died in the pre-Doriath days, or taken a ship to Valinor. That would explain why Celeborn got the title "Prince of Doriath" and not Galadhon. 4- Luthien. Absolutely! They're related, and they live in the same area. If you want some fabulous Celeborn-in-Doriath, read Oak and Willow by Marnie. It's got some wonderful stuff on cultural differences between Noldor and Sindar, and her characterization of Celeborn is phenomenal. Coincidentally, it also works out every question you have here. ~Meril



Re: Celeborn in Doriath

- Celeborn and Galathil. Twins? Does anyone have any idea? While researching my Genealogies, I found nothing that gave a birth date for either Celeborn or Galathil. So, canon says neither yay or nay... - Their father. Does anyone know where he would be - in Doriath, not in Doriath... Celeborn was known as Celeborn of Doriath. Little is known of his father (in this version of his genealogy), Galadhon. However, Galadhon's father, Elmo, was the brother of Elwë Singollo (Elu Thingol), and chose to stay with his brother in Doriath. So, Galadhon's father and son both lived in Doriath -- it seems reasonable that he would, also. - Would they be quite friendly and on good terms with Luthien? The only friendship I recall from canon was that Galadriel was friends with Melian. I don't recall anything whatsoever indicating that Celeborn and his brother were, or were not, friends with Lúthien. My personal theory about canon is that (if it is not contradicted in canon) anything goes, as long as you can make it seem reasonable within the context of Tolkien's world and your story. A friendship between Celeborn, Galathil, and Lúthien seems plausible to me, unless someone else finds some contradictory canon... Hope this helps! (And hope someone else can help you with the questions that I couldn't...) - Barbara



Re: Celeborn in Doriath

Meril pretty much covered everything, so I will just reinforce that twins are exceptionally rare in M-e. There is only one set that I am aware of not of the Peredhil line, and those belonged to Feanor (one of whom was originally intended to die during the ship-burning at Losgar, hence the reason for making them twins). Tolkien only seems to have written twins when he intended to separate them (though he sometimes changed his mind by the the final draft, or, as in the case of Elrond's son, left it ambiguous.) Karri



Re: Celeborn in Doriath

Didn't 'Feanor' say that there were only three sets of elf twins? That is, the Feanorians, Elros and Elrond, and Elladan and Elrohir? You know what I'm going on about, I think it was called the Shibboleth or musings of Feanor or something. I could be wrong.



Re: Celeborn in Doriath

Yay for Celeborn! ;) Re: your second question... Though Middle-earth lay for the most part in the Sleep of Yavanna, in Beleriand under the power of Melian there was life and joy, and the bright stars shone as silver fires... --The Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of the Sindar, The Silmarillion, p. 91 In Beleriand in those days the Elves walked, and the rivers flowed, and the stars shone, and the night-flowers gave forth their scents; and the beauty of Melian was as the noon, and the beauty of Lúthien was as the dawn in spring... --The Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of the Sindar, The Silmarillion, p. 95 How they could look like noon or dawn before the sun had risen, I don't know ;) but he does stress the stars a lot. If you can get far enough from civilization, the night sky is amazingly bright and the stars recede infinately. Given how much better Elvish eyesight is, maybe it would be like us looking through a telescope, much brighter and more detailed? Also, since trees, flowers, &c. were adapted for that light level, perhaps elves were too. As to your third question, the first time we meet Celeborn he is simply called 'kinsman of Thingol' (when Galadriel stays), but after they are wedded, when Nimloth marries, 'Prince of Doriath' has been added. You could take that as an indication that his father or brother had been alive, but then died, promoting Celeborn. That Elwe was still alive seems less likely to me–he should have got some mention, I think, if he had. As to Lúthien, I don't think canon says yea or nay. Celeborn & kin get strangely little mention in the Silm–Celeborn, despite being 'Prince of Doriath', never actually does anything, or has his whereabouts mentioned. Finwe's grandchildren are close, but they are similar (I guess) in age; Celeborn and Luthien might not be. ;), Elemmíre



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