Henneth Annûn Story Archive

Altariel made me do it (quoth the Faramir nut).

Anyway, just what the title says - speculation, opinions, etc relating to Faramir son of Denethor.

----AM

 

Thanks for starting this!

AM wrote here:

[...] Faramir does so well under Aragorn's rule, as opposed to having the life expectancy of a glass anvil, which would be his obvious destiny under "real world" conditions...

Go on, then, let's hear a little bit more about your thinking on this one. I may end up devouring what you read, nodding, and not feeding much back, but I'm really interested in character speculation, so you have a dedicated reader.

 

Ah, the glass anvil thing.

The matter of Aragorn's acession and his political and personal relationship with Faramir is one of those occasions in the book that make me say to myself "this is the fantasy bit, then." Seriously. Orcs and Ents are simply beings that could arguably exist under the appropriate circumstances, but kings (and rulers in general) like Aragorn aren't generally found outside Storyland, and I'm not referring to the whole messianic theme here.

So - in real-life circumstances, what would a newly-proclaimed King of a country that hadn't had a king for 1,000 years do?

Well, arguably, realpolitik!Aragorn would need Faramir at first. Faramir, after all, knows how things work in Gondor - he was born and raised there, in the centre of power, he's familiar with the land, the people, the way of life. A great deal of reconstruction work needs to be done, and a King from what is arguably a foreign line and unknown to the country at large would be prudent to keep someone like Faramir close. A reward is also in place, and such a version of Aragorn would probably also make Faramir the Prince of Ithilien. Of course, in such a scenario, there would be the additional motive that Ithilien would be an unlikely place to build a power base in.

But these circumstances would last only while Faramir's dangerousness didn't outbalance his usefulness. And real-life successful supreme rulers have to be crafty enough not to be dependent on anyone for long. You can say that Faramir, assuming his personality in Realistic!Middle-Earth would remain the same as in the canon, wouldn't present a threat to Aragorn because he has no political ambitions for the supreme post. That is, however, completely immaterial. What matters is what Faramir represents. He comes from a long line of rulers and would be the logical focus for those of the Gondorian nobility disgruntled with Aragorn's rule (particularly if they felt an intrusion on their native turf). Faramir's personal opinions are irrelevant in the matter. A rebellion in his name would always be for an ulterior motive, and he need not be consulted on the matter - throughout history, there were many rebellions ostensively carried out in the name of people who in fact had nothing to do with them and whose opinion was not requested.

(In the realm of fantasy fiction, a similar situation occurs in Terry Pratchett's Men at Arms, although the situation is, in some ways, the reverse. And, unlike Carrot, Faramir's heritage is widely-known. And he's the second of the realm.)

Therefore, the logical political action taken by realpolitik!Aragorn would be to discreetly eliminate Faramir when his usefulness reached its sell-by-date. Hence, the glass anvil.

-----AM

PS - I am probably uniquely qualified to comment on this issue as that was more or less what happened to an ancestor of mine, who made his acquaintance with a gentleman with a heavy axe when the King he helped put on the throne decided he'd outlived his usefulness and could end up by wishing to ape his betters. So there ^_^

 

Interesting post. Faramir of course compounds the uneasiness by acquiring an alliance with the Rohan royal family. Even if Aragorn were to spare Faramir, he might have to eliminate his male offspring to make the succession clear. (And who is to say whether their character would follow their father or their mother in the matter of political ambition.)

Tavia

 

What account should be taken of the elves who have moved into Ithilien along with Legolas? Would Legolas act as an agent of Aragorn to keep an eye on Faramir and any who would attempt to enlist him? Elves could make very good spies, noting every visitor and hearing many conversations.

Or would the elves be another complicating factor, wanting nothing to do with such a role, and even becoming friendly or feeling it in their interest to maintain Faramir as Prince of Ithilien? They wouldn't have to worry that Aragorn would appoint someone less sympathetic to the elves, given his connections, but what about Aragorn's descendants? Numenor is a model of sorts, although the situation is different.

Of course if Faramir's son married (arranged or not) one of Aragorn's daughters, would that help or merely complicate things?

Lyllyn, tossing fuel into a good political fire.

 

Faramir of course compounds the uneasiness by acquiring an alliance with the Rohan royal family. Even if Aragorn were to spare Faramir, he might have to eliminate his male offspring to make the succession clear. ~ Tavia

Indeed. Mind you, historically, that process of elimination does not need to be literal, nor is it restricted to male offspring. The most successful rulers (successful in the sense of clinging to their post in such a manner that a siege weapon wouldn't remove them), after all, have operated on the wise principles that all are guilty until proven innocent and that underestimating your enemies is frequently the last mistake the less successful make. So, I would say there can be a lot of possibilities: unfortunate "accidents," marriage to trustworthy non-entities, appointment to "20 minutes" posts (i.e., with a life-expectancy of 20 minutes), appointment to posts that involve a great deal of in-fighting, placement in posisitons that are all looks and no substance, appointment to posts that involve a great deal of scrutiny from aformentioned ruler and, of course, last but not least, the reward. Indeed, there is nothing quite like the reward to prompt the self-inducted fall of foolish adversaries and to instill fear into the hearts of the intelligent ones.

Of course, the real problem is the issue of the succession, isn't it? If realpolitik!Aragorn were the sort of ruler that has to worry only about a) his back, b) the political entity he's ruling, there would be no real need to eliminate anyone until circumstances forced his hand. It would be much more profitable to create the sort of political situation in which all your opponents are, metaphorically speaking, like a bunch of cats in a sinking bag convinced you are in their midst, when in fact you're the person standing on the bridge and enjoying the amusing results. But when you have the survival of your line to consider, the survival of some other people may be more questionable.

Of course if Faramir's son married (arranged or not) one of Aragorn's daughters, would that help or merely complicate things? ~ Lyllyn

From the point of view we are addressing, it might be a disaster. If Faramir's son married one of Aragorn's daughters, the descendants of that union would arguably have some claim to the throne. Now, it can be said that any other marriages between Aragorn's daughters and other people would produce a somewhat royal progeny and that is no reason to have the Pricesses enter a life of celibacy. However, other possible matches wouldn't be with people that come from a family that ruled Gondor for centuries. That's not something you forget; what if the descendents of that match started growing too fond of the idea of restoring the family to its one-time standing? Quite so.

I have lots of futher ideas on this issue, but they will have to wait a bit.

Schnoogles,

-----AM (your friendly neighbourhood reader of Machiavelli)

 

Of course if Faramir's son married (arranged or not) one of Aragorn's daughters, would that help or merely complicate things? ~ Lyllyn

From the point of view we are addressing, it might be a disaster. If Faramir's son married one of Aragorn's daughters, the descendants of that union would arguably have some claim to the throne. Now, it can be said that any other marriages between Aragorn's daughters and other people would produce a somewhat royal progeny and that is no reason to have the Pricesses enter a life of celibacy. However, other possible matches wouldn't be with people that come from a family that ruled Gondor for centuries. ~AM

The trick here then would be to secure an Ithilien-Minas Tirith axis of power by marrying off Aragorn's son to one of Faramir's daughters. Which also gets the royal family of Gondor handily married into the royal family of Rohan. (And any descendent of Faramir's is already descended from the Dol Amroth line, i.e. the other really significant power base knocking around.) But that's changing your scenario a bit. Into pre-WW1 Europe, I guess. And at some point the lines of descent would become a bit thin, and factions would emerge again. Thinking as I'm writing.

 

Ooo, this is an interesting thread I need to print out and study. I have much spoilerish to say about Faramir and Denethor and Boromir in my AU in beta (The Steward and the King). I have to get writing again! The origin Nuzgul for S&K was most definately Politics of Gondor with respect to the King's Return.

I have a handfull of few short scenes to write -- I write all over the place, as does Meg -- and then I could start unlocking chapters. The future themes to be developed get put on the table in chapters two and three -- conversations between Faramir and Aragorn, and Aragorn musing.

I'm getting too much (yeah, right) distraction from so many good new chapters and stories people have (thank you!) been posting in the past several weeks. Maybe I can save aside a half day this weekend for writing ...

The politics of a change of power are fasinating to consider.

 

The trick here then would be to secure an Ithilien-Minas Tirith axis of power by marrying off Aragorn's son to one of Faramir's daughters. ~ Altariel

Will you stop reading my mind and spoiling my fics, please? ^_^

-----AM

 

The politics of a change of power are fasinating to consider. ~ Julie

Absolutely. Regardless of whether we consider it from a canonical or realpolitik!Aragorn perspective, I can foresee a very real political frisson in the Fourth Age due to the change in regime. I spend time pondering these things, you know. That's why I write never-ending, politically-minded Fourth Age fics and have a reputation for weirdness ^_^

So, where does this frisson stem from? Well, assuming my interpretation is correct, the new stability following Sauron's defeat would prompt a change from war to politics as the main occupation of the power structure. I imagine that during the "King's Peace," the old families would promptly dedicate themselves to political advancement. At least that's what always happens in ever single period of human history, and I don't think human nature was much different in ME.

However, I think that Aragorn would be likely to "plant" his Northern adherents in positions of power in the newly restored Reunited Kingdom. He comes from the Northern line, and his original power base was among the Dunedain of the North. For all practical purposes, he is a foreign element in the Minas Tirith - Dol Amroth body politic. The bulk of his rewards for service would evidently go to his Northener followers.

This, of course, would not be particularly welcome by the Southern nobility. I also think that there would be the rise of a new merchant class whose economical power would mean that they would be able to challenge the nobles at their own game, and this further intrusion would cause further disaffection in the latter.

I also find it likely that Aragorn (canon!Aragorn, that is) would rely quite a lot on Faramir and possibly on the Prince of Dol Amroth as well - judging by the fragmentation of the Fellowship, I don't think that Aragorn is very good with group situations. He's good with individuals, yes, and he's good with dedicated groups he's had extensive experience commanding. But he doesn't appear to be very good with other kinds of groups, which is of course what he'd have to deal with as King (I think he'd come to learn, though). This should be in no way constructed as a slighting of Aragorn's abilities. On the contrary, I greatly like Aragorn in the book, but evidently he wouldn't be able to be perfect in everything, everywhere; in fact, I like him because of the fact that he is not perfect, which enables him to escape the dreaded Gary Stu shadow. Which is why I think he'd prefer to deal with groups through his Steward, who after all knows who these people are, and is quite the "headology" practicioner to boot ^_^

That would lead to a narrowing of Aragorn's support base amidst the aristocracy, who would also resent Faramir's political ascendancy. Once again, let me stress that this would have nothing to do with the quality of Aragorn's rule or his popularity outside the aristocracy. I can imagine Aragorn being an excellent King (i.e., not at all like a real King ^_^) and being very popular - and none of this mattering to the disgruntled nobility. It's a simple matter of the goose that lays the golden eggs - when the eggs go elsewhere, those who did not get them will be resentful.

So what would a marriage between Eldarion, Aragorn's son, and one of Faramir's daughters bring about in such a situation?

Well, it would definitely strengthen the MInas Tirith-Ithilien relationship, like Altariel pointed out, as well as eliminating any pretensions to the supreme post that Faramir's descendants might entertain, as some of them would now be the monarchs, but it would also have the disadvantage of reinforcing that narrowing of the power base even more.

In any case, Faramir must have an acute political perception, to be able to thrive in the new regime. If not, those with a chip on their shoulders would certainly cause his downfall.

----AM

 

Hello all ,

this is my first post. I realize that this discussion seems to be old, but I'm very interested in this topic, so I hope I can generate some further discussion. Please forgive grammatical/spelling errors - English is not my first language.

However, I think that Aragorn would be likely to "plant" his Northern adherents in positions of power in the newly restored Reunited Kingdom. He comes from the Northern line, and his original power base was among the Dunedain of the North. For all practical purposes, he is a foreign element in the Minas Tirith - Dol Amroth body politic. The bulk of his rewards for service would evidently go to his Northener followers.

I see two possibilities here:
1) Aragorn holds Arnor and Gondor as separate entities. That would mean: He has to move frequently between the two (just like the kings in the Middle Ages). He will need his own Steward of Arnor. All administrative/governmental positions will be chosen from among the Northern Dunedain. Advantage: no wrangling between North/South. Everyone holds position in the land he knows best. Distinct disadvange is, naturally, that in this way, no _reunited_ Kingdom can develop.
2) (And I think this is more likely) Exchanges between the two halves. This has advantages for the Northern Dunedain in that they can learn in a _functioning_ infrastructure and government. The Gondorians have, perhaps, a chance for faster advancement when working "from scap" in rebuilding infrastructure/government/institutions etc.
I'm reminded a bit of Germany, in fact. When Western German politicians//managers/merchants went to East Germany, they had considerable advantages in taxing, help in making a home, a firm etc. but naturally, it was all more backward and alien by Western standards. In part, this is still the case today.
So perhaps it's all a question how ambitious or lazy an man-of-influence in Gondor is to choose between staying in Gondor or going to Arnor and making a name for himself in rebuilding this kingdom.

I also find it likely that Aragorn (canon!Aragorn, that is) would rely quite a lot on Faramir and possibly on the Prince of Dol Amroth as well - judging by the fragmentation of the Fellowship, I don't think that Aragorn is very good with group situations. He's good with individuals, yes, and he's good with dedicated groups he's had extensive experience commanding. But he doesn't appear to be very good with other kinds of groups, which is of course what he'd have to deal with as King (I think he'd come to learn, though).

I never saw it that way. Why do you think so? It seems to me that the fraction in the Fellowship lessened as time went on. But I don't think Aragorn had much to to with, or not more or less than others. He is the leader after Gandalf, and reckognized as much, but he doesn't impose on others.
Furthermore, Aragorn has had to deal with court politics and court intrigue before, both in Rohan and in Gondor. It seems certain to me that he has had to have some skill in managing small fraction, e.g. to gain the respect and influence in his advancement as Captain Thorongil, particularly as he was an outsider.

Which is why I think he'd prefer to deal with groups through his Steward, who after all knows who these people are, and is quite the "headology" practicioner to boot ^_^

Yes.

In any case, Faramir must have an acute political perception, to be able to thrive in the new regime. If not, those with a chip on their shoulders would certainly cause his downfall.

Yes. An ability to keep the balance between influence/respect and becoming a focal point ot dissension.

Very interesting comments!
I'm glad to be a member of such a diverse and astute group.

Regards,
Imhiriel

 

In the Fourth Age Gondor that exists only in my imagination, Eldarion would marry either a daughter or grand-daughter of Faramir. I didn't think of it so much as a way of bolstering the House of Telcontar (or of Faramir's line) so much as a neat way of fixing some powerful Numenorean/Elvish genes for future generations, such as the gifts of foresight and Healing (thought the latter is partially tied to the Kingship). Besides, I do want Faramir's descendants (some of them anyway) to rule as Kings without displacing Aragorn's line.... I also wonder if Faramir's life was a bit short by Numenorean standards, and if his exposure to the Black Breath had something to do with it... RAKSHA THE DEMON

 

 

Raksha, More adding to your question than answering it, I am afraid. What is speculation on laws concerning purity of blood-line and royal accession into the Fourth Age? Eowyn had some Gondorian (Numenorian?) through Morwen. But the rest was the Rohirric line. Arwen aside (niece of Elros) are there any thoughts on House Telcontar and laws of succession viz bloodlines? In the Fourth Age Gondor that exists only in my imagination, Eldarion would marry either a daughter or grand-daughter of Faramir. I didn't think of it so much as a way of bolstering the House of Telcontar (or of Faramir's line) so much as a neat way of fixing some powerful Numenorean/Elvish genes for future generations, such as the gifts of foresight and Healing (thought the latter is partially tied to the Kingship). B. Iris

 

And still more speculation: what about primogeniture regardless of gender? Numenor allowed eldest born daughters to inherit - what about Gondor? Or would they come up with a "Salic Law" of their own? Do we even know if Eldarion was the oldest child of Elessar and Arwen? I've been through the primary sources, but haven't found a firm answer. If he wasn't, and there was an older Princess/es, then that would be an indication that succession laws in Gondor favoured male heirs. Here's a thought - what if the eldest child of Elessar and Arwen were a daughter, and she married the eldest son of Faramir and Eowyn? In the real world, that would virtually be a death sentence for any of their children, assuming that the marriage was even permitted. cheers, Maya

 

Do we even know if Eldarion was the oldest child of Elessar and Arwen? No, we do not (as you well know, since you've checked!) Tolkien didn't even give us the courtesy of telling us how many daughters Arwen and Aragorn had, much less their names and birth order... (But I'm not bitter... oh, no, I'm not bitter at all.) - Barbara, who is working on Genealogies, so cares about this sort of stuff far more than is healthy... *They are fictional characters* *They are fictional characters.* *They are fictional characters.* Do you think I might get myself to believe that someday?

 

*They are fictional characters* *They are fictional characters.* *They are fictional characters.* Do you think I might get myself to believe that someday? Absolutely Not!!! ( ... and really, why would you want to?)

 

Tolkien never specified a birth order to Aragorn and Arwen's children, or even said how many daughters they had; just that Arwen had "daughters" to whom she bade farewell after Aragorn's death. If Eldarion married a daughter or grand-daughter of Faramir, I think it would bolster his own house, and not, at least for several generations, imperil Elboron's heirs' rights to Ithilien unless they stopped producing male children (which, in the House of Hurin, doesn't seem to be a problem). There will be a problem down the line though. You can only do so much inbreeding between Dol Amroth/Rohan; the daughters of Faramir and Eomer's lines will probably compete for Eldarion; materially and genetically, he's THE marital prize of all the Kingdoms of the West. And after a match is made between Eldarion and either a princess of Rohan or Ithilien, a child of that match cannot marry a child of Dol Amroth, Rohan or Ithilien. Hopefully, there's some good Numenorean or otherwise worthy blood out there among the nobility of Gondor and the Dunedain and the Rohirrim. Of course, if, a few centuries down the line, the lords of Gondor, Dol Amroth, Ithilien, and Rohan become greedy, there could be some very nasty wars over all four domains, since the lords share kinship...(that is, if the mother of Eldarion's children or grandchildren is a princess of either Rohan, Dol Amroth or Ithilien) Raksha the Demon

 

 

My thought on the matter is that already marital alliance between Dol Amroth and Ithilien is out. Concievably Eldarion could marry from Dol Amroth. There are also the other noble bloodliness to consider, Lossarnach, Morthond, Lebennin, Anfalas, and the Northern Dunedain; though the last might be impolitic and considered an insult to the south. Ideally Eldarion's wife would come from one of the high noble families of Gondor. I see Faramir's kids, for some reason, being given a bit more liberty in marriage choice. If we are talking marriage to House Telcontar I can see a son (but not canonical Eboron) marrying a younger princess of the house. Elboron, as future steward would perhaps need to stay a bit "apart". But having a younger sib with ties to the throne could be an interesting bit of politik. I still need feedback on primogeniture. I have a politific in outline involving the succession, and the implications of Eldarion being the last born of Aragorn and Arwen's children, born some 23-24 years after their first daughter was born. B. Iris If Eldarion married a daughter or grand-daughter of Faramir, I think it would bolster his own house, and not, at least for several generations, imperil Elboron's heirs' rights to Ithilien unless they stopped producing male children (which, in the House of Hurin, doesn't seem to be a problem). There will be a problem down the line though. You can only do so much inbreeding between Dol Amroth/Rohan; the daughters of Faramir and Eomer's lines will probably compete for Eldarion; materially and genetically, he's THE marital prize of all the Kingdoms of the West. And after a match is made between Eldarion and either a princess of Rohan or Ithilien, a child of that match cannot marry a child of Dol Amroth, Rohan or Ithilien. Hopefully, there's some good Numenorean or otherwise worthy blood out there among the nobility of Gondor and the Dunedain and the Rohirrim. Of course, if, a few centuries down the line, the lords of Gondor, Dol Amroth, Ithilien, and Rohan become greedy, there could be some very nasty wars over all four domains, since the lords share kinship...(that is, if the mother of Eldarion's children or grandchildren is a princess of either Rohan, Dol Amroth or Ithilien)

 

I still need feedback on primogeniture. I have a politific in outline involving the succession, and the implications of Eldarion being the last born of Aragorn and Arwen's children, born some 23-24 years after their first daughter was born. B. Iris This is the only thing I can think of, Blue: 'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part. 'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."' The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion Of course, they were being very snotty with Arvedui; I wonder what would have happened after Ondoher died if an Eärnil II hadn't been available and if Fíriel hadn't married outside the kingdom... They might have gotten pragmatic quickly if there were truly only a female claimant... On the other hand, there was the Kin-strife, so pragmatic might have been beyond them... We could have had a new line of Kings from The House of Húrin (the Stewards)... it does hint in Peoples of Middle-earth that they are the descendants of Elendil via Anárion, though not on the direct line of kings... I've speculated that they descend through the 3 unnamed older siblings of Meneldil, some of which might have been female. King Pelendur, anyone? HTH, Barbara (Edit: ) P.S. Can't wait to see the story...

 

Barbara, 'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."' Excellent reference! It is also significant that in the books, the point is repeatedly made that the line from Isildur through to Aragorn is unbroken from father to son. Also, Aragorn is restored to the throne as Elendil's heir, through the line of Isildur - which neatly circumvents his right of succession to Anarion. I agree with you that the circumstances around Ondoher's death were - special. But combined with the statement you quote above, it seems to be strong evidence for a "Salic" tradition - male primogeniture in matters of succession. B.Iris, The story sounds fascinating. Looking forward to it. cheers, Maya

 

It is also significant that in the books, the point is repeatedly made that the line from Isildur through to Aragorn is unbroken from father to son. Also, Aragorn is restored to the throne as Elendil's heir, through the line of Isildur - which neatly circumvents his right of succession to Anarion. Both good points! And it is also somewhat ironic that Arvedui made that second point (that Isildur's heir is in fact also Elendil's heir) in his bid for the throne of Gondor (the second message), but "To this Gondor made no answer." - Barbara

 

"PS - I am probably uniquely qualified to comment on this issue as that was more or less what happened to an ancestor of mine, who made his acquaintance with a gentleman with a heavy axe when the King he helped put on the throne decided he'd outlived his usefulness and could end up by wishing to ape his betters. So there ^_^" See, an ancestor of mine was lucky to shack up with the Tudors in the very beginning and when they had the throne, he married in and that was that. I believe he helped heavily with the war effort. Even though my family history is full of royal and noble persons, there are no negative stories to tell. My family has been lucky for all of recorded history... why then, did that not extend to me?? As for Faramir... I was so angry when I read the books, that Eowyn and Aragorn wouldn't be together, but then I actually read about Faramir and fell in love. He is by far my favorite character in the books: very humane and intelligent, but also brave and strong. Not to mention that he isn't prone to bouts of self-worship that draw out for hours at a time. *coughAragorncough* I was livid after the last movie... Not at all like Faramir. Noble features and RAVEN hair, I do believe. Lady of Tremaine

 

When Frodo speaks to Gloin (I think) in Elrond's hall, the dwarf mentions the Bardings and the Beornings. Isn't it possible that some of the 'excess' of daughters in these various lines might be exported North to give fresh blood (and genes) to the Northern realms. And surely, by extension, it's not entirely implausible that noblewomen from the North might be sent to Gondor, Rohan etc etc to make good marraiges? The royal line of Rohan, in particular, might be willing to make such a marraige as they have long distant links to the Northmen.

 

And surely, by extension, it's not entirely implausible that noblewomen from the North might be sent to Gondor, Rohan etc etc to make good marraiges? Such a royal marriage did occur, when Valacar, son of Rómendacil II, married Vidumavi, daughter of Vidugavia, the strongest King of Rhovanion (and ancestor of Marhari, who probably was an ancestor of the House of Eorl, the Kings of Rohan). The resulting Kinstrife was disastrous for Gondor... - Barbara

 

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