Henneth Annûn Story Archive

This thread contains the rules for the way the Writers's Circle will operate and is the place to make suggestions if you think we should do things differently. Please note that the Writers' Circle is still in a pilot stage and we will be reviewing the way it works after a few weeks. If you have any suggestions for how the group should be run, please leave them in the Rules for the Writers' Circle thread.

 

The Writers' Circle has been running for a few weeks and I think is working well - please let us know if you have any suggestions for improvements. There have been a few practical changes over the last few weeks which seem to have smoothed the running of the forum and I have revised the rules (in bold) to reflect this. If you have other suggestions for how the rules should be changed, please post in this thread. 1. Any HASA member will be free to participate in the Writers' Circle by writing something in response to any prompt and/or providing critiques on any responses others produce. If the Writers' Circle becomes too large to function effectively, the Writers' Circle Manager(s) and the Welcome and Beta Manager will consult on how best to create additional Writers' Circles. 2. Members will not have to respond to every assignment or critique every response. However, members are asked to try and provide feedback to at least two other writers for every response they submit themselves, in order to ensure everyone receives a good level of feedback. 3. By submitting responses, writers are acknowledging that they expect an honest assessment of their work. Members providing critiques are asked to do so in a polite and constructive way. Given the very public nature in which feedback will be given, flames (personal attacks on authors) will not be tolerated. Any members making posts which, in the opinions of the Writers' Circle Managers, in consultation with the HASA Admins, constitute flames will be banned from the Writers' Circle. Please note that, in any case, normal HASA rules apply to this forum as much as any other part of the site and members must abide by the Code of Conduct. 4. The assignments to be used will be selected by the Writers' Circle Manager(s). 5. There will only be one assignment set at any one time. 6. Any member will be able to suggest a prompt (or complete assignment) through the Proposals for assignments thread, but only the Writers' Circle Manager(s) will be allowed to post official new assignments for the Writers' Circle. Threads with unofficial assignments will be deleted, although the Writers' Circle Manager(s) reserve the right to make use of ideas in unofficial assignments in official assignments. 7. Assignments will be designed to result in fairly short pieces of work and suggested word limits will be given. Responses are not expected to be "finished" or even highly polished. Where the suggested word limit is "around a page", this should generally be taken to mean around 300 to 400 words. 8. Authors are free to turn assignments into longer works. However, they should only post the short versions for the Writers' Circle to critique. This is to keep the workload manageable for other members. If the Writers' Circle Manager(s) find(s) that a member is repeatedly posting responses which are more than double the suggested word length, s/he will be given a warning. If s/he persists, s/he will be barred from the Writers' Circle discussion. Please note that this is not the forum to specifically seek a beta reader for a longer work; the Welcome and Beta Manager will be happy to point authors to other areas of the site where such appeals will be welcome. 9. Assignments will cover areas such as: The sound of language Punctuation, syntax, the narrative sentence and paragraph Rhythm and repetition Adjectives and adverbs Tense and person of the verb Voice and POV Implicit narration: imparting information Crowding, leaping, focus, and control Other areas and exercises may be added at the suggestion of members of the Writers' Circle 9. Members will have a limited time to produce a response to a particular assignment. The usual cycle will be that * the assignment will be posted on a Friday * responses will be expected by the following Tuesday * feedback will be provided by the following Friday, when a new assignment will be announced. Other deadlines may occasionally be set at the discretion of the Writers' Circle Manager(s). Authors are asked to refrain from responding to feedback until after the deadline for posting responses has passed, in order to minimise the length of the thread while new responses are being posted. Authors are welcome to start a single separate thread for each assignment in which to hold a general discussion about the issues raised in the assignment 10. All responses and feedback should be posted in the same thread as the prompt description. For clarity, members are asked to change the subject of the thread when they reply. For a response, the preferred form to be used is: SSP: Author Member Name For feedback to a specific response (or responses), the preferred form to be used is FB: Author Member Name(s) 11. Writers may produce more than one response to a particular prompt but should limit the number of responses to any single prompt to a reasonable level (generally three or less). If the Writers' Circle Manager(s) feel a member is repeatedly flooding the Writer's Circle with responses, they will be given a warning. If they persist, they will be barred from the Writers' Circle discussion. 12. Writers are not limited to responses set in the Ardaverse but are encouraged to mostly write about Ardaverse. This is because there pieces are likely to be of interest to more members and they are more likely to receive additional critique beyond the bounds of the exercise (e.g. on their use of canon or the effectiveness of their characterisation) if they write about Ardaverse rather than other fandoms or "real life". If responses are set outside the Ardaverse, they should not require special knowledge of another fandom.

 

I just wanted to post a short note to thank everyone who helped get the Writers' Circle off to such a terrific start. We had some great responses to the prompt, what looked like a lot of very useful and supportive feedback (please feel free to carry on providing feedback if you have time) and a lot of participation, including some from very new members to HASA as well as veterans. We've made some minor changes to how the Writers' Circle operates in a response to feedback in the first week that it wan't always easy to find new SSPs. These changes are posted in bold in the rules (see above). In other news, you will notice that Nerwen has posted this week's assignment. Nerwen has kindly volunteered to become one of two co-Managers of the Writers' Circle. The other will be AmandaK, who will be joining us in a few weeks when real-life permits. Until then, I will be staying around to help Nerwen. I'm sure we'd all like to extend a warm welcome and our thanks to both Nerwen and Amanda for taking on the task. I'd also just like to thank Gwyynyd for using her considerable research skills to track down the great resources to accompany each prompt, which are posted in the resources section - please do check these out, as they are very useful. Cheers, Liz/Tanaqui HASA Welcome and Beta Manager

 

Now the Writers' Circle has been running for a few weeks, a few practical changes have been made, notably the addition of an extra thread for each assignment to discuss general issues raised by that assignment. I have updated the rules to reflect these changes. This post should also bump the rules up to the top of the list and is a reminder to everyone participating to make sure they are familiar with the rules (and follow them). I feel the Writers' Circle is running very well, but please let me know if you would like to see any changes. Thanks to all participating members for making this a success. Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

question - I've been otherwise occupied for a couple of days and missed a few SSPs on the part one of the exercise. Can I / Should I (in a house with a mouse) go ahead and critique those, or just move on to part two?

 

question - I've been otherwise occupied for a couple of days and missed a few SSPs on the part one of the exercise. Can I / Should I (in a house with a mouse) go ahead and critique those, or just move on to part two? Sulriel, no writer in their right mind would tell you to move on and miss a chance at critique! Any comments cheerfully accepted at any time - and I imagine by most anyone. Critique away! People were invited to contribute an entry to an older exercise at any time, so feedback at any time only seems reasonable to me. What say others, particular our venerable beta admin? Lyllyn

 

our venerable beta admin? Why do I suddenly feel the need to start peering in the mirror looking for grey hairs? Sulriel, I would be delighted if you - and anyone else - would carry on providing feedback. The deadlines are really to indicate what most people should be (and are) working on now, but I see no problem in someone going back and providing either new responses or (especially!) critiques on past assignments. In this case, they're not so much rules as guidelines.... Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

Hi All I'm pleased to announce that AmandaK is now ready to take up the position of co-manager of the Writers' Circle. Thank you, Amanda! She will join Nerwen Calaelen in posting assignments and otherwise ensuring the smooth running of the Writers' Circle. I'd like to thank Nerwen for the great work she has done so far which has allowed me to step back from the Writers' Circle to concentrate on other activities. I'm delighted she is continuing as one of the co-managers. I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank Gwynnyd for the time and effort she has spent sourcing the excellent resources that have been posted to accompany the assignments. I'm sure these have been of great benefit to the participants and also form a useful resource for all HASA members. Also, thank you to all the participants for making the Writers' Circle such a success. Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

Conga-Rats!! I'm glad to hear that you'll be joining the circle and looking forward to writing with you.

 

the questionable adult passage is here. => POV exercise please feel free to discuss it openly in any way that will help the membership. I thought I would like to open discussion myself so no one will be shy (snicker) .. I know that normally isn't a problem with this group ... about discussing these paragraphs. It was brought to our attention that it is possibly a good example of a post that is difficult to rate because it lacks the normal specific references to private body parts, etc.. there are no specific graphic actions, only the Orc's imagination touching on possible actions and his desired results ... but the specifics are violent rather than sexual ~ which are normally allowed much more than comments, actions or thoughts of a sexual nature. thoughts? comments?? (... dare I say it?) guidelines?

 

Is this where we are supposed to discuss the Vitzug passage? Or are we supposed to discuss it somewhere else? and, um...what exactly are we discussing? Lindorien And hello, AMANDA! Will you be likewise writing with us? I hope so!

 

War is hell, as the saying goes, and, as we all know, The War of the Ring was no exception. Professor Tolkien's creations existed during troubled times, and adding a touch of reality not only ehances the connection between reader and author, it adds more depth and nuance to all. Even though the characters we love and write about inhabit ME, they are still living, breathing, eating, belching, s***ting, sleeping, stinking, laughing, hating, loving, lusting beings. We should embrace that which binds them to us. I loved that passage! No offense was taken. That being said, I WOULD take offense if adult situations were used gratuitously. Sex, violence and language for the sake of shock value has no place here, or anywhere for that matter. Nice to be back! RubyG

 

My apologies that the reasons for this discussion were not clearly stated at the start in this thread. RubyGamgee wrote: Professor Tolkien's creations existed during troubled times, and adding a touch of reality not only ehances the connection between reader and author, it adds more depth and nuance to all. Ruby, no-one is suggesting we do not write about difficult themes. The concern is that adult-rated material or material which some members may find disturbing is presented appropriately on forum threads which are rated "general". This is necessary because HASA owes a duty of care to its members, especially the many minors who are members, to present adult-rated material appropriately. The discussion here is to look primarily at how we can present adult-rated responses to assignments in a responsible fashion, with the aim of determining a new rule for the Writers' Circle. I do not want to discourage members from writing adult-rated pieces but to allow them to do this while also allowing our younger members to participate fully in the forum. The new rule I suggested over at the Point of View and Voice 1a thread was:

that authors producing adult-rated responses post them as a story chapter and to link to them from the thread, while members providing feedback do not quote in the thread any extracts from the piece which could be considered to exceed a PG-13 rating.

I'd very much like feedback on whether people feel that is an appropriate way of dealing with adult-rated responses. If anyone has any other suggestions for how we could handle this, I'd be happy for us to consider them as well. Please present them here. Lindorien wrote: Is this where we are supposed to discuss the Vitzug passage? Or are we supposed to discuss it somewhere else? Just to clarify, the aim of the discussion here is how best to present adult-rated writings, with the Vitzug passage acting as an example of a piece which may be difficult to rate. If you'd like to discuss Sulriel's piece as a respone to the assignment, please do so in the Point of View and Voice 1a thread, if you can discuss it without quoting portions of the piece which could be considered adult-rated. Otherwise, I am sure Sulriel would like to receive feedback in her personal forum or by email. Lindorien, I hope I have answered your other questions as well. Sulriel also threw open the discussion on how we define adult-rated or disturbing responses that it would not be appropriate to post in a "general-rated" forum, and I think that is a valuable debate as well. Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

Taking off my admin hat and putting on my member hat... Sulriel wrote: It was brought to our attention that it is possibly a good example of a post that is difficult to rate because it lacks the normal specific references to private body parts, etc.. there are no specific graphic actions, only the Orc's imagination touching on possible actions and his desired results ... but the specifics are violent rather than sexual ~ which are normally allowed much more than comments, actions or thoughts of a sexual nature. I'd just like to comment that, from what I have seen, sexual content and violence are treated slightly differently in the US and in the UK. In the UK, it is violence that typically earns a movie a higher certificate rating, while greater sexual content is tolerated. So I think that comments, actions or thoughts of a sexual nature would be more permissable in the UK than specifics of a violent nature. Sulriel, I very much enjoyed your piece, but I would consider it could be "disturbing" to some people because of the level of sadism I saw Vitzug displaying. I also interpreted Vitzug's responses as having an extremely strong sexual component which I also found challenging. My perception of the sexual content could be my misreading, but I think it may well be a result of the extract not being set within the context of the rest of your story. On both those grounds, I would be uncomfortable seeing this posted in a "general-rated" forum, although I firmly believe that there is a place for such content at HASA, albeit clearly marked "adult-rated". Cheers, Liz

 

Actually my question had to do with where we were supposed to discuss it. There seemed to be a bunch of pointers leading every which way. I didn't want to be sitting in the wrong thread discussing it. I left the feedback on Sulriel's POV in the thread for this week's exercise. I didn't see the passage as particularly adult. Fascinating, Interesting, well-crafted, yes. Adult? That's in the eye of the beholder, but if everybody else sees it as adult... ...then they do. So - if we're putting up something higher than pg-13 we should put in a link to...where exactly? Our forums are also public. Or do we set up a beta story just for a passage? Does beta have those adult tags? Seems to me it doesn't. And they get circumvented with a link to a story, don't they? Just tell me and I'll do it, but I think I'll stick to nice non-controversial subjects because it sounds like those hyperlink thingies will be required. So maybe leave instructions for those also. Lindorien

 

I think all of you know me well enough to know how hungry I am for feedback, ((Thank you all for the compliments on that section!!!)) but I thought this discussion was to specifically discuss how to tell if your paragraphs need to go in a separate link. (sorry Liz, I didn't understand that was up for discussion, I thought it was a great idea in general) referring to the example passage - has no 'dirty' words, no foul language or cursing, no explicate actions, no named private body parts. He slices her with one shallow slice, muses how good her blood smells and how much fun he is going to have dominating her. that's it. I know (??) I have read much more specifically graphic posts -especially for example in the wounds discussion It was my understanding that we generally use the/a (?) movie rating system. I have a copy of Nevada Smith, filmed in 1965, rated 'PG' - there is a scene in which two outlaws are very clearly enjoying skinning an Indian woman (still alive. .. she is standing when it starts) .. yes, they are laughing and having a great time, and it very clearly shows the initial cuts. There have been multiple conversations regarding unusual sexual preferences and situations that as far as I know, have not caused problems. so I'm a little confused as to the guidelines, maybe that is what needs to be discussed. -or enforced if there are already guidelines in place. I will be the first to admit I may be missing them. There are multiple posts both here and on the yahoo list that are highly sexual in nature ... I commented a couple of days ago about Kreamy Kream donuts, chocolate syrup and the Sons of Elrond that was quite sexual in nature but as far as I know, no one was offended. I co-moderate a general board that has a small membership with several teens that are regular posters, including my 14yo nephew. If I see something questionable posted, I'll alert the manager, if she doesn't respond in a timely manner, I'll make a judgement call. Occasionally, I do simply delete an offensive post that I am confident the manager would consider out of line . .. those are the community guidelines and are unilaterally enforced. No one has a problem with it because the strict family content is clearly defined upfront. .... not sure where all this rambling is headed .. but I think it means that we need more guidelines ..

 

Thanks for the welcome, guys! ::lowers voice:: I have been lurking on and off for a while now, but RL-issues took up too much time to put on the manager's hat. ::normal voice:: I am looking forward to working with you all. I wish I could also join the writing process (Heaven knows I could stand to learn a thing or two or three or four still) but I'm already stretched rather thin, writing wise. So for the time being my role will be the same as Nerwen's: posting assignments and keeping everything running smoothly. Which means that if you have any concerns, you can always contact me through my profile. Amanda

 

Sulriel also threw open the discussion on how we define adult-rated or disturbing responses that it would not be appropriate to post in a "general-rated" forum, and I think that is a valuable debate as well. Ah yes, that's the really hard question, isn't it? As Liz already mentioned in another post, it differs from country to country, and no doubt from person to person. I know that German television will cut violent scenes from t.v. series that are merely considered PG13 in the US, whereas Dutch t.v. will be more liberal. And it's probably personal as well. I don't easily "squick" and I don't think I've ever read any (fan)fiction that offended me (except maybe in lack of care on the part of the author.Think multiple typos etc.). Finding something disturbing, though, is a totally different matter. But it's not necessarily a bad thing. To the contrary. "Disturbing" is often caused by subtleties, which are hard to pull of. It's like a horror movie. One that has a high gore-factor will either put me to sleep or make me laugh (depending on my mood). They are also easy to pull of. After all, how hard can it be to fling around fake blood in large quantities? But a movie (or fic) that doesn't show anything but still creates a frightening atmosphere will be more disturbing. I have to admire someone who can give me such a sense of discomfort. Hmm... I don't think this is really helping. This post is certainly not providing a short and easy answer! Amanda. P.S. On the subject of how to post adult-responses, is it possible to create a Closed-thread in an open discussion? If yes, maybe that can offer a better method than the post-as-story rule?

 

so I'm a little confused as to the guidelines, maybe that is what needs to be discussed. -or enforced if there are already guidelines in place. I will be the first to admit I may be missing them. I second that. Anyone who knows me knows I can be dense enough to need a 2 x 4 over the head before something is obvious to me. I didn't find Sulriel's POV piece offensive. I understand the whole point of underage or easily-offended persons who could (or already have) joined this discussion. Then again, it takes an awful lot to squick me. If so...should we be posting those sort of things somewhere else? Please...for those of us density-challenged, make it clear what is and is not acceptable or I will gaffe too. I'd hate to offend anyone, but I suppose in large groups that is bound to happen. Still any preventative measures would be good. Afraid I'm a bit like Pippin, rather clueless at times. Thanks! Levade

 

I'd very much like feedback on whether people feel that is an appropriate way of dealing with adult-rated responses. If anyone has any other suggestions for how we could handle this, I'd be happy for us to consider them as well. Please present them here. My two cents. When threads were getting too long for exercise replies being crowded by FB replies, no one was asked to edit/relocate their existing posts. The rules were amended, asking one new thread to be opened for discussion, so the exercise thread would contain only SSP and FB. I'm sure there exists good reason why this case was handled differently, but it's lost upon me. The facts are no different, the same thing happened: a rule didn't exist, but participant conduct gave administator(s) the idea that a rule should exist for future reference. But instead of amending the rules and moving on, we've moved backwards by losing an exercise reply and personalized FB from the place specifically created to house them. Sulriel's post probably had the best chance to catch someone unsuspecting while it was still up at the 'on our minds' display -- same with any graphic reply to the Sex in Middle-earth discussion, or any thread discussing surgical procedures in detail, etc. Otherwise, people would have to sign up for the Writers' Circle discussion, read every post, and lack that bit of common sense we've all heard of as many times as slash has been debated: if you don't like it, don't read it. These, in my opinion, are potential solutions: Follow after the example of the Sex in Middle-earth discussion, and put up a disclaimer in the header, that replies might be adult, graphic, or whatever. Enforce a new rule that any post with adult content must display a warning up top (like a 'spoiler space'). Close the discussion, allowing anyone access on condition that they acknowledge exercise replies may contain adult rated material. But censoring a discussion with relatively few participants, while discussions with immensely higher traffic proceeded uncensored at their busiest, and no effort appears forthcoming to censor present/future discussions with a potential audience of hundreds, seems unfair to me at least. -AE

 

Please...for those of us density-challenged, make it clear what is and is not acceptable or I will gaffe too. It is easier for me. I have a 12 year old daughter. I don't think sex per se is enough to make me want to cover her eyes and keep her sheltered. The same with blood and gore or even tension. She watches enough TV and reads enough books that this is not an issue. I would, however, like to shelter her from overt and detailed descriptions of the mechanics of the sex act designed to provide titilation, sado-masochistic sex, graphic incest, or graphic abuse and violence from the point of view of someone who enjoys violence. Yes, I would turn off the TV if I found her watching that, or take the book away, and we'd have a long talk about 'appropriate'. I don't feel these things fall into the US PG-13 or British 12 rating. I think any reasonable person can see a difference between a fairly clinical discussion of the results of wounds and how to treat them in a medical forum and a loving description of how a character would enjoy inflicting the same wounds for the thrill it gives and the enjoyment of the pain the victim would suffer in a story forum. I don't see that we have any very young or very innocent readers for whom we'd have to worry about keeping things to a PG or G/U rating. I don't think there is anything wrong with writing or reading material that is R/18 or NC-17/R18 rated, I read it myself and I may very well write some in the future, but the person doing so should have to opt in to the material and not run across it unexpectedly. If you don't have a daughter, just keep some hypothetical and innocent young girl in mind to be your litmus test of whether you'd want her to read something. Gwynnyd

 

Perhaps I am weird this way, but I always find that feelings and emotion with just a bit of suggestion thrown in can be much more "adult" than a full-out explicit piece, filled with lots of mechanics but little feeling. You can say "insert bit A into slot B and that's nothing worse than we see in many PG13 movies. Titanic jumps to mind, but I'm sure there are others. It's certainly no worse than what is shown on a lot of "Simpsons" episodes (a show I watch regularly). Why? I'm not 100% sure myself. But if you really get me into someone's head and their thoughts happen to be adult-rated, I can create all sorts of adult-rated things for them to do. I guess, with SUlriel's piece, my mind didn't stop with the events Sulriel described. I had a real feeling for the type of orc VItzug was, which meant I could take the movie inside my head much further. As for what adult is... I'm not sure I can lay it down in any kind of rubric, so here's my personal opinion. This is just my thoughts, nothing official or whatever. Take it for what it's worth. Language: Not a huge problem in this fandom, for some reason. The everyday swearwords (the four-letter variety) that I can hear walking down the street aren't really a problem for me, except for that they seem out-of-place in M-e. But not enough to make a piece adult. I might feel difficult for derogratory slangy names for parts of the anatomy, but if you're using those words it's usually adult on other grounds as well. Sex: Twelve- and thirteen-year-olds have often have sex ed. They know the mechanics of it. General description of sex isn't too adult, though it can be borderline. It all depends on how it's handled. (I tend to err on the side of caution here.) Discussion of specific kinks, sado-masochism, that type of thing, is veering more toward adult. Violence: Lord of the Rings is a PG-13 rated film, and PJ got away with having Lurtz lick that blade, putting orc heads on poles, catapulting Gondorian heads into Minas Tirith, and the general grime of Pelennor and Helm's Deep. So I don't think the mechanics of violence are really what get me, except in some pretty extreme situations. (If you're gearing more towards "Saving Private Ryan" than "Return of the King", then maybe we're talking adult.) What really gets me is the motivation behind that violence, because that tends to lead to more extreme things in my mind. I'm about to have to go, so unfortunately I'll have to address the rest of these points later. But Sulriel, let me just say that I did read your piece, and I *loved* it. I'm an adult, and I do enjoy the occasional adult piece. (I loved what I've read of "Sulriel", for example, and must find the time to read more.) I've been meaning to give you feedback, actually, and I'm not quite sure how to do so. As I managed to hurt myself yesterday and probably won't be around HASA much for the upcoming days, maybe private email is best? If you like, email me and I'll be glad to give you feedback. Marta

 

Wow - lots of good discussion. I want to be sure that everyone understands that I do consider that entire fic 'adult' even though there is nothing specifically explicit or graphic in the entire fic. .. but because of the theme of it, dealing with the nature of Orcs. In my defense, I didn't consider that it might be a problem with posting it because the nature of the community seems not to be overly concerned with ratings (as opposed to the other community I mentioned previously). in mentioning the medical thread, I was making a relative comparison of the graphic specifics involved. .. speaking of how to break someone's leg with an axe, one bone or both bones... how to debilitate an arm or leg, to what extent. It is clinical, but the specifics are graphic. My 12yo son had sex-ed in school this year, he has been helping me with breeding horses for about two years now. My son and husband and I discussed shipping semen at the dinner table last night, including collecting the stallion with an AV (artificial vagina). - but he has not, and will not, read the Vitzug passage - I understand the difference. My question is; as an administrator, how are you going to define that in a way that can be enforced.? You can't realistically prohibit 'offensive' passages because the term is inconsistent between individuals. You can have a policy to delete anything that receives a complaint, but I doubt that would ever happen without more complaint from the 'other' side. .. imagine if people started complaining about refs to slash. .. . Personally, I am fine with any number of solutions, either to link out to adult passages, or close the thread or even disallow adult passages, - as long as we all know the specific criteria... I'm not sure why this problem was handled differently except that there was a comment made, where on many other potentially offensive posts, no comments are made. ... I'm 'ok' with removing it because one reason I write is because I want people to enjoy my efforts. .. certainly I don't want to offend anyone... that more than defeats the purpose, I'm sure most people feel the same way. hope I haven't missed any points, Its been a distracting day and I've worked on this post three times over the last ??? hours. *** Marta, thank you SO much!! I'm collecting feedback to do one sweeping edit before I dust my hands off and would LOVE to have your feedback. I'll email you privately about it.

 

Jumping in late, sorry. A good point, Sulriel, about the different aspects of certain material - medical graphic vs disturbing emotional material where it's the hints that generate the chills, as opposed to clinical description. One issue is the difference between someone's private forum and a 'public' or site sponsored workshop forum. In general, I agree that 'offensive' material is in the eye of the beholder and "if you don't like it don't read it". But if we're inviting everyone - including minors - to a workshop, I think a warning or an extra click for those who want to avoid that material is necessary. I liked AE's suggestion of a warning and a spoiler space. Lyllyn

 

Hi All This is a long post which attempts to address many people's points. I have tried to be as clear as possible, as I feel the discussion has so far got somewhat at "cross purposes" at times. I'd appreciate it if people could read carefully and ask me for clarification if my meaning is unclear. First of all, please let me reassure everybody that at no point has anyone been looking to "censor" contributions to the Writers' Circle. When the Writers's Circle Managers, HASA Site Managers and I were discussing the issues raised by the presence of adult-rated material in the Writers' Circle, we agreed very quickly that we do not want any limits to be placed on what people write in their responses. However, we also want to make sure all members, including minors, can participate in the Writers' Circle. We therefore felt we needed to find the best way to allow authors to produce material which exceeeds PG-13, while acting courteously and responsibly towards those members who may be legally too young to read adult-rated material or who prefer not to read particular types of content. We believe it's necessary to find a way to place a "buffer" of some kind between readers and adult-rated material that allows them to make a conscious choice to read it. AfterEver wrote: I'm sure there exists good reason why this case was handled differently, but it's lost upon me. The facts are no different, the same thing happened: a rule didn't exist, but participant conduct gave administator(s) the idea that a rule should exist for future reference. But instead of amending the rules and moving on, we've moved backwards by losing an exercise reply and personalized FB from the place specifically created to house them. AE - I'm very worried that you have gained this impression. As far as I know, nothing has been deleted from the site. Certainly, nobody has been asked by the admins to delete anything; Sulriel was asked to move her piece and create a link. The piece is still available. Moreover, I created this discussion because - unlike the case with reordering how the threads worked, where it was perhaps mostly a "technical issue" - I and the Writers' Circle Managers did not want to introduce an arbitrary rule change on such a complex and sensitive issue. (If you really want me to do that, I can do so. It would be a lot less hassle for me personally . But I'd much rather get the Writers' Circle participants to work together to find a good long-term solution that most people agree on.) As Lyllyn has noted, there is a difference between the expectations members have on entering a personal forum at HASA and a "site owned" forum like the Writers Circle. In a personal forum, members probably expect to encounter adult material mostly in threads about adult stories (and even so, I have rarely seen personal forums where adult content is quoted from a story - people generally refer to it more obliquely rather than by a direct quote). In site-owned forums which are rated "general", I think people don't expect to encounter adult-rated material. The whole Sexuality in M-e" discussion is clearly labelled "adult" and that sets people's expectations (and I was under the impression - although I could be wrong - that these "adult-rated" forums don't show up on the "On Our Minds" page). Also several people have commented that there can be a vast differece in "rating" between reading an emotionally engaging extract from a story (which Sulriel's piece definitely was) and reading a more "detached" discussion about that same story, or a "clinical" discussion of wound damage or sex acts. Normally people read story extracts by actively clicking on a HASA story marked as "adult" or "general". In the Writers' Circle, it is a less active choice, since the material occurs as part of a thread which is mostly not adult-rated. (Please note that I recently tackled a similar issue when setting up the TBYB forum. Here, each story is in a separate thread, making it much easier for authors to label adult content.) There are no easy answers to "what is adult rated?" - many other people have struggled to answer this. The MPAA and BBFC ratings may help (click on the logos on the top of the page to get details of the BBFC ratins). However, perhaps a good rough-and-ready test, leading from Gwynnyd's comments, is "Would you be willing to let your thirteen year old daughter/sister/niece/neighbour read this?" If at all in doubt, I personally think it's best always to assume the higher rating. We suggested linking out to the story from the thread since this would ensure readers made a conscious choice, although this could make it slightly more difficult to give feedback. Warnings and spoiler space have also been suggested as a good way to provide an opportunity for people to steer clear of adult-rated material (although my personal experience is that it can sometimes still be hard to skip over material even with spoiler space). I am very happy to add a rule which implements any combination of these options. So, what do you guys want? "If it is the will of the members, the HASA Beta Admin will see it done" Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

only the Orc's imagination touching on possible actions and his desired results ... but the specifics are violent rather than sexual ~ which are normally allowed much more than comments, actions or thoughts of a sexual nature. Coming from a vampire fandom before (though quite a few years ago!) I don't think I'm exactly qualified to comment on this. Probably because I found the passage a bit too erotic to be called violent? I thought it was excellent! But, then again, I could see how this could be er... stimulating to an Orc. Perhaps others would be squicked by it. And it does reveal the author's notion of how an orc might feel, which is something plausible and something we see little of. I suppose think back to the scene in Interview with a Vampire where Lestat is toying with the courtesan's....that is where you really see his true nature.... ~Trish/Lady Aranel

 

I don't see that we have any very young or very innocent readers for whom we'd have to worry about keeping things to a PG or G/U rating. Some thoughts.... I have a child that is almost 10, she is intellectually developing around the level of a 6 or 7 year-old but has the emotional maturity of a 12 year-old (Yeah, my hands are full!) She has seen all the LotR movies, we read passages from the books and I fully intend to write fanfiction for her about her favorite character. I do not belive the violence that we typically see in stories would bother her, partically because she lacks the maturity of an adult to understand the deeper emotional content and partly because American's, sadly, have become accustomed to it. Yes, there are some people out there that are offended by this content, but do we have to worry about some of them even coming to the boards, lists or forum? Most of them won't, and won't have even allowed their kids to read the books or see the movies. If the kids *know* about LotR, they probably learned it from their parents.... so... Now, explicit sexual content and slash content, no, she is not ready for that! (heck, some of it *I'm* not ready for!) ~Trish

 

We suggested linking out to the story from the thread since this would ensure readers made a conscious choice, although this could make it slightly more difficult to give feedback. Warnings and spoiler space have also been suggested as a good way to provide an opportunity for people to steer clear of adult-rated material (although my personal experience is that it can sometimes still be hard to skip over material even with spoiler space). My question is regarding just that -- the links sound like the best way to ensure that the reader acknowledges she/he is going to read an entry that is adult and/or something that could be potentially offensive, is of age, and won't hold HASA responsible for the content they will read there. If this was my own site I would say let the reader beware and use spoiler spaces. People do need to be responsible, regardless of age for what they choose to read, so long as the warnings are clear. However, this is not my site and I can see how HASA management might want to be far more cautious. I don't see how we're going to be able to feedback these 'adult' pieces though. I've already rather lost Sulriel's piece, and I fear if the exercises aren't together, they might get overlooked. That doesn't strike me as right either -- but rather as penalizing someone for delving too deep. Spoiler spaces seem best to me, allowing the pieces to remain together, in the same exercise, without sending everyone haring off in different directions. I bow to the will and wisdom of the group, however, and will do as directed. Just my two pence. Levade

 

Hi Levade Thanks for understanding that HASA may have different responsibilities to more privately run sites. By the way, if any one is interested, some 100 of the 600 active members at HASA are aged 17 or less, a fairly significant proportion. I don't see how we're going to be able to feedback these 'adult' pieces though. I've already rather lost Sulriel's piece, and I fear if the exercises aren't together, they might get overlooked. That doesn't strike me as right either -- but rather as penalizing someone for delving too deep. I believe Sulriel will now be using a different piece for her exercise and the Vitzug piece is now available simply for comment as part of the "What is adult?" debate. I do agree that we risk penalizing authors and I hope we can minimise the impact of that. As far as providing feedback, my impression is that it if you don't quote large chunks of the story, it's usually possible to discuss an adult story without exceeding at a PG-13 rating yet without constraining the discussion. (It's something akin to the difference between a sex -education class and an adult-rated film, I think. But I could be wrong. ) I was reminded earlier today that there are a couple of options here for helping people to find their way back to the feedback forum once they are reading the extract: 1) members can use the "link discussion" feature to connect their story chapter to the Writers' Circle discussion. This means a link to the discussion appears alongside the story chapter near the bottom of the menu on the left hand side of the page. When you click on it, it pops up a new window containing the forum threads, allowing you to type comments as you read. 2) members can post a hyperlink at the end of the story chapter holding their extract that takes the reader back to the specific forum thread for the exercise. I can post some sample code that people can use to make that happen (including opening the thread in a new window so the reader can have story and comments open at the same time.) I hope both of these would help to some extent with the issue of convenience in giving feedback. I am also asking Tech Support about other ways we could handle this, but these would almost certainly require coding and probably couldn't be implemented for some time. I am keen to address this issue reasonably quickly so we can put some kind of policy in place. Levade's preference is duly noted. Any others? Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

Frankly, I think once hyperlinks or whatever are involved, the pieces are less likely to get read. I'll stick to PG-13 or lower. The 'go hyperlink it' rule was enough to get everybody to keep their pieces in the 300 word range, so I suppose it will work for this. Whatever Sulriel did with her piece, a road map and a bag lunch were required to find it. For whatever reason she removed it, somebody made complaint or special note which caused the action. In other words, whatever people want to do. I'd appreciate any new rules spelled out in short, declarative sentences and if hyperlinks are involved - intstructions likewise given in short, declarative sentences. Also - ARE we supposed to be feeding back any more than - 'Your POV is fine' with this exercise? Discussion stuff is normally posted and I wondered if it was clipped from the original instructions or simply not part of the exercise. Lindorien

 

AE - I'm very worried that you have gained this impression. As far as I know, nothing has been deleted from the site. Certainly, nobody has been asked by the admins to delete anything; Sulriel was asked to move her piece and create a link. The piece is still available. No need to worry; you've misunderstood anyway. I said: we've moved backwards by losing an exercise reply and personalized FB from the place specifically created to house them I hope that's clearer. Moreover, I created this discussion because - unlike the case with reordering how the threads worked, where it was perhaps mostly a "technical issue" - I and the Writers' Circle Managers did not want to introduce an arbitrary rule change on such a complex and sensitive issue. I understand that that issue was more cut 'n' dry. But you do understand that I was making an example, I hope, between two cases that were factually similar but handled differently, despite that a similar solution could have been implemented in both cases. (If you really want me to do that, I can do so. It would be a lot less hassle for me personally . But I'd much rather get the Writers' Circle participants to work together to find a good long-term solution that most people agree on.) Honestly, yes, I would have expected something like, "Hear ye Hear ye, a new rule is hereby in effect: from now on, no adult-rated responses. These links discuss what constitutes R-rated material, please have a look for reference -- kisses, the management." I can't imagine anyone wanting to take it further, when they could simply avoid posting anything close to adult and move on. Isn't that a good long-term solution most people would agree on, or am I mad as a hatter? As to "HASA operated" discussions as opposed to "private"... is this something the average user can be expected to identify? And would they thereafter be expected to go, "oh, well, I can't take offense to that sexually explicit/graphically violent post, because it's in someone's personal discussion"? Not trying to argue, just asking from a practical POV. I think posts all look pretty much the same from the 'on our minds' page, no matter which discussion they're in -- maybe I'm not looking as closely as others would. As to forum ratings... okay, feeling dumb here. I only have personal forums, I'm not an administrator, but I'm not seeing a check box or anything to designate a discussion 'adult'; furthermore I'm not seeing any existing adult-rated discussions. Do you just mean that unless a big label or disclaimer is put up, a discussion should be assumed 'general'-rated? Or that all site-run forums are general by default? I'm confused. So... (and I was under the impression - although I could be wrong - that these "adult-rated" forums don't show up on the "On Our Minds" page). This is front page news to me, like I said, I didn't even know discussions could be rated, and I couldn't figure out how to do it either. -AE

 

Levade's preference is duly noted. Any others? I am of two minds. My preference would be to use a warning and spoiler space, assuming that we feel that is enough to cover the "On our minds"-problem. And that's the one thing I'm not too sure about since the possibly-offensive-to-some material would still be right there. OTOH, someone (I forgot who, sorry) mentioned that everyone has their own responsibility also in what they do or do not read. We'll have to find the best trade-off between HASA's responsibilities and ease of access of the exercise submissions. And on a none-related note, Lindorien wrote: Also - ARE we supposed to be feeding back any more than - 'Your POV is fine' with this exercise? Discussion stuff is normally posted and I wondered if it was clipped from the original instructions or simply not part of the exercise. As far as I can tell, these particular exercises did not come with discussion-instructions attached. Purely speaking for myself, I think the purpose of this series of assignments is to experience how the choice of viewpoint influences how and what you write. So it's more the process that matters than the result. I'd assume participants are free to discuss the difficulties (or lack thereof) they ran into when writing their submissions. But that's just my opinion Amanda

 

Whatever Sulriel did with her piece, a road map and a bag lunch were required to find it. If you mean the Vitzug piece (and you may not as I'm late coming to this discussion), I found it easily, it opened in a new window and I never left this forum, so I didn't have to navigate back. The fact that I was eating lunch while I did it probably has nothing to do with it! ~Lady Aranel~

 

If you mean the Vitzug piece (and you may not as I'm late coming to this discussion), I found it easily, it opened in a new window and I never left this forum, so I didn't have to navigate back. The fact that I was eating lunch while I did it probably has nothing to do with it! **snicker** If there were a home for the technologically challenged, I'd be its headmistress, Lady Aranel! I don't know what I was doing wrong, but I kept following links and following links and following links. I found it eventually, and I also landed in this discussion thread, confused, hot, tired, and wondering what in the world all the hoopla was about! Next time I pack a snack and load the elephants before embarking on such a journey! Lindorien

 

Lindorien, In the future, you should consider booking your travels with MeARA. The bag lunch is included, and a guide, which can be upgraded to your choice of Rohirric or Gondorian for a reasonable surcharge. .. and don't worry about that Gladden Fields rumor, it is NOT true. ** on this other business . do we need to vote? or is someone going to make a decision? I think I'm more confused as time goes on. I think that a spoiler space with a warning should be enough to allow someone to skip a potentially offensive post, determined by if you let a 10yo child read it. yes? no? otherwise???.

 

Hi All Thanks to everyone for the feedback. AE wrote: As to "HASA operated" discussions as opposed to "private"... is this something the average user can be expected to identify? And would they thereafter be expected to go, "oh, well, I can't take offense to that sexually explicit/graphically violent post, because it's in someone's personal discussion"? Not trying to argue, just asking from a practical POV. I think posts all look pretty much the same from the 'on our minds' page, no matter which discussion they're in -- maybe I'm not looking as closely as others would. No, you're right - the distinction is probably not nearly as clear to the average member as it is to the admins and especially myself (since I've just set up two "HASA operated" discussions with their own specific rules - the Writers' Circle and "Try Before You Buy"). I think there are distinctions: "HASA operated" discussions tend to be used to provide site "features" which should be open to all members, while "private" ones are typically for story feedback and people are more likely to feel the need to participate only in those where they feel comfortable anyway. I think the admins need to look at whether that lack of clarity is an issue and what we can do about it if it is. AE wrote: As to forum ratings... okay, feeling dumb here. I only have personal forums, I'm not an administrator, but I'm not seeing a check box or anything to designate a discussion 'adult' AE - I must apologise: this was me getting confused about an e-mail conversation I had a long time ago. "Closed" discussions (ie those with limited participation) do not appear on "On Our Minds". I was under the impression that discussions such as "Sexuality in M-e" which are labelled as adult in the discussion introduction were also set up either "closed" (but with all members permitted to participate) or were set up in some other way by the admins that restricted how they appeared on the "On Our Minds" page. I've checked with Tech Support and this isn't the case. Sorry about that. However, the admins and Tech Support are now looking at the issue of how adult posts might be handled generally and whether posts marked as adult can be kept as part of the main thread but not automatically display to minors. We are at the very early stages of exploring what is possible technically and we won't be implementing anything until whether it should be implemented has been fully considered. This may lead to a solution which meets everybody's needs for the Writers' Circle (as expressed in this thread). Sulriel wrote: on this other business . do we need to vote? or is someone going to make a decision? Sulriel - I'm still trying to gather opinions and would like to wait a little longer to see if there are any more comments before I propose a final form of the rule. The views expressed so far seem to suggest members would prefer a subject-line warning and spoiler space and that they feel (with some reservations) that this would be an adequate solution. As far as I can tell, most people are not opposed to linking out but would prefer we don't take that approach. Does anyone else have any other comments? Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

For what it's worth - possibly not a great deal as I merely lurk here - I'd prefer to see adult rated material linked to, rather than posted in the thread. As someone who has often had to do so on another forum I know how difficult it can be to estimate how far you need to skip down to avoid whatever it may be when warnings and spoiler space are used. More importantly there will be quite a few HASA members who are using computers in situations where they can not have adult material open on their screen (I assume - I'm extrapolating from my experiences at a similar-sized forum that I know rather better.) For example, until 18 months ago I didn't have a computer so all my internet surfing was done either at work (allowed in own time but 'unsuitable' material strictly monitored and could lead to disciplinary action) or at a local library where the display of unsuitable material leads to your banning. I'm guessing that there would be HASA members in a similar situation. We also found that we had quite a number of teenagers whose internet access was at school - and again they had strict guidelines about what could be viewed. It therefore becomes very difficult if adult material appears in unexpected places. All the stories here have ratings and forums such as the sexuality one are clearly going to contain adult material, but I have to admit that I would have assumed that it was safe to open this forum at work. Admittedly I now have internet access at home so I don't have to use the work computers, but none-the-less I do use them at times (in my own time) so for me at least a link to adult rated material would be far preferable. If, as seems likely, that option isn't the chosen one then can I suggest that it would be good if forum introduction clearly flags the fact that adult material can be contained in these threads. Avon

 

Hi everyone Tech Support has come up with a way for us to mark any post containing adult content with a bright red "Mature Content" label. You'll find when you next post that, above the box where you type your reply, there are two options for "Audience". Simply pick "Mature Content" if you want to warn people that your message contains adult material. I've marked this message as "Mature Content" so that you can see how the message shows up in the box at the top right hand corner of the message. The great thing about this new feature is that posts marked "Mature Content" won't appear on the "On Our Minds" page, so you can post adult content knowing people will only see it when they come to the forum. If people still want to put in spoiler space in their posts as well, that's also useful, to allow people to page down past adult posts more easily. I think this solves most of the concerns of the admins and Writers' Circle Managers, while giving Writers' Circle participants freedom to post any kind of content in their responses to assignments. I hope you find the new feature useful. Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you have any questions and please feel free to continue discussion of the issues relating to posting adult content. Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

Hello? Anybody there?

 

sorry, Ruby, I've been pulling in other directions lately and had to drop a couple of things. - about to drop a couple more things and go for a nice long ride on a handsome young stud

 

Hi Ruby and Sulriel Yes, I had noticed the Writers' Circle had gone rather quiet. Unfortunately, a combination of RL and other admin duties meant this kept never quite getting to the top of my list. I'm sorry I couldn't make it more of a priority. I know several participants, other than Sulriel, are busy in RL. Amanda, Nerwen and I have discussed things and agreed we won't post any more new exercises until people have a chance to catch up with the current ones, if that seems like a good idea to you all. However, I would like to know if there are broader issues with the way the Writers' Circle is being run which are stopping you participating. I would love to hear suggestions for things you think might be done differently that would encourage you to participate more. For instance, we were asked to split longer exercises over several weeks, but are people getting bored when an exercise to rewrite the same piece spreads over more than two or three weeks? (So is it the current, rather repetitive exercise that is discouraging, and people would like to move on?) Is the Writer's Circle too big, so people feel overwhelmed by the need to give feedback, and end up not participating at all? (Remember that you are only required to give feedback on two other pieces.) Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

Hi, sorry combination of RL and being away for the first part of this exercise meant I did not jump in. I do think I would be more tempted if one multi part had not followed on from the previous one. I get very sick of writing over and over in the two minutes of writing time I get a week. Mind you, just reading the exercise gave me such food for thought over the last week or so that I have nearly plotted another large fic. Vapour ware as yet, but at least the muse hasn't croaked completely yet. What is the next topic anyway? (after part three of this one of course) Rosemary

 

Liz, Well, since I am a high school teaching, single mom, living in a small southern town, and not a Baptist, I don't have a real life. But, I fully understand that others do; I know, I watch you guys from the sidelines rushing around trying to be everything to everybody. Perhaps it would be best for all involved, especially for multi-part exercises to post the instructions all at once, all parts at the same time. Then give us a two week, or even a three week time period in which to complete the piece(s). After that we post it all in one lump, giving others the same amount of time for feedback. OR... A months worth of assignments posted at the beginning of the month and we here at the Circle can write and post at our leisure any time during that calendar month. A thread can be created for each one, and feedback can be given accordingly. OR... One writer, one assignment. They post, and then everybody comments on that piece. This would allow for longer pieces to be written, (word count being a major bugaboo with me), and feedback not to get jumbled up with other pieces and lost. Perhaps even the writer whose piece is on display could implement some of the suggestions given and repost. As to the actual assignments, I was speaking to a colleague, an English teacher, showing her some of my work, and she commented that the assignments sounded as if they had come directly from one of her textbooks. Now, I'm not saying that our grammar is perfect, every period, comma and semicolon is right where it should be. But, I do believe the participants in the Circle have had some experience with putting pen to paper and would appreciate assignments that stretch them a little more as writers. Make as write outside our comfort zone, (Can't believe I just volunteered to write about something other than Hobbits! Yikes!), challenge us, make us pull our hair in frustration, question our ability to command our native language. Only through failure do we grow. (Only platitude of this message). Beware asking for my opinon, for I will most assuredly give it to you. I respectfully request that this Circle not be allowed to die. I have enjoyed writing the pieces far too much to see it fade into the bottom of the forum list. Ruby G P.S. Suriel - Tell me, do you ride Western or English?

 

I respectfully request that this Circle not be allowed to die. I have enjoyed writing the pieces far too much to see it fade into the bottom of the forum list. I second! I've learned a lot out of the exercises, but just got too overwhelmed in the last few weeks. I welcome anything that would get us going - and I know several members probably have great ideas inspire, energize, and force us to 'stretch'. "Bring them on!" Lyllyn

 

I agree the circle should be kept alive. Since I've been in Ireland this summer, I've been going out a lot more than I do at home and also I have intermittent internet access, so I just haven't the time to write the exercises and read and critique everyone else's. I am sure that I will get more into it when school starts again and I will be looking for ways to procrastinate on "real work."

 

P.S. Suriel - Tell me, do you ride Western or English? lets just say I'll try anything once and most things twice. growing up a little south of Cowtwon, Texas made me a cowgirl, but I've been dabbling in dressage lately and really like the freedom and balance I find the in the dressage saddle. In fact, last time I barrel raced, was in my dressage saddle. .. and my 8yo son won his division in the speed events in an a/p. I guess it goes to show that anything is possible. I don't think anyone minded the tack so much as they hated the fact we beat them on Ay-rabs. Do you ride? (I tried to answer privately, but your email is turned off in your bio}

 

Hi All I'm glad to hear people do want the Writers' Circle to continue and that it's simply a busy time of year. Amanda, Nerwen and I will discuss how best to wrap up the current exercise and give people time to deal with that before we post any new exercises. RubyGamgee wrote: Beware asking for my opinon, for I will most assuredly give it to you. Well, I did ask! You have some really good ideas here and they are much appreciated. As I've never launched or run a Writers' Circle before, I wasn't sure myself how it might work. You've given me some excellent food for thought about ways to offer different kinds of "writer development" activities. I'm going to be working with the other admins soon on plotting out further features that will fall under the Beta Admin's care, and all input is very welcome. If anyone else has suggestions, please let me know, either in this thread or through the contact form. Cheers, Liz/Tanaqui HASA Beta Admin

 

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