Forum: Hands of the King

Discussing: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Betwixt Finduilas POV - She wrestles with a choice between duty and love. The guys are not helping matters. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

*spoiler space* A difficult man to woo, to be sure. -"I love you!" -"I wish you held your tongue!" -"No way! Do *you* love me?" -"Yes, but..." Thanks Ang, this is a most enjoyable chapter. And hope the parents won't ground poor Finduilas for three months.. Edited to add spoiler space, but it might be too late. (I didn't remember in time this forum had a mail service.) Sorry Ang & everyone.

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Yay, FINALLY!! Thanks Ang for putting Fin (and us) out of her (our) misery, at last. Great chapter. I especially like all the political calculating that goes on in the "revelation" conversation, and then the sudden turn as Fin thinks "of one more thing to ask". It caught me a little off gaurd that she was going to finally speak her heart, after it seemed she'd just resigned herself to another option. Excellent suspense! A couple of specific comments, if I may presume so much: ** I like the switch to thees and thous in the last stage of the chapter. The more formal language gives this part of the conversation a gravity and a Significance it surely deserves. ** I did find it a little hard to follow who was speaking through that section though. Had to read much of it several times over, to get the sense of what each was saying. An example: who is saying ‘Thou must here choose twixt love and oath.' I desperately hope we are going to hear Denethor's POV on this conversation next! Pleeeese!

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Edited to add spoiler space, but it might be too late. (I didn't remember in time this forum had a mail service.) Sorry Ang & everyone. Hey, no problem! Finally reading those lines made me quite happy even before I got to read the latest chapter. Isn't it funny how people tend to assume Fin's in love with Beregar? Now I'm curious how Denethor will reconcile Fin's confession and his own with his oath. In fact I'm glad I know the outcome of this whole affair, or I'd be runing around screaming for frustration because of the injustice of it all! Finduilas touched his hand and he seized hers in a grip that hurt. He raised her hand up and brushed his cheek against it, eyes closed. *sighs & melts into a puddle of goo* <-- Sorry for the fangirlishness, but I can't help it!

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Finally! Thank you! Now I want to see her hit her parents with the same brick. Or will Denethor do the honors? Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Oh, my heavens! My heart was pounding, like hers, all through that conversation! I can't help but think that the ship is about to hit the sand now.... Ann

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

*snerk* Replies to everyone lumped together below... Wasn't it fun watching Mr. Grumpy's head explode? ;-) Yo, Dude, *thwap*. Now comes fun with the parents, yes. It is not a spolier to say there is another Finduilas POV chapter after this, and that she is trying to decide what to do next. The Prince and Luinil figure heavily. All I gaurantee is that the course of true love does not run smooth. The switch to thee/thou, thoguh formal, brings about intimacy because of the ordinariness of their usual speech together. However, I tried not to go overboard with it, so it is not used completely consistently as they argue. And why wouldn't Finduilas fall in love with her Hound? He is a very sweet and dear man. Had his mother been legitimate, and he an acknowledged grandson of the Steward, it would have been an almost inevitable match. Ivriniel catches on very quickly that it is Beregar's attentions that are driving Adrahil a bit crazy. Denethor is going to have to make up his mind before the end of next year, as they marry in 2976 according to Tolkien and I'm not writing an AU here. So Mr. Grumpy has finite time in which to get his act together. Of course, the real fun is who is going to tell Thorongil that things are *not* going to go his way? Fangirl puddle moments are perfectly acceptable... What I was trying to work through in this chapter was how does *Finduilas* make her choices between what she knows (or believes) to be her duty/obligation/fate to do and her own desires, particularly as compared to Denethor. She is envious that Thorongil has duties that allow him to fulfill them while also having what he desires, or so it seems. She doesn't spend nearly as much time agonizing over the choice as Mr. Grumpy, and is willing to trust her own judgment despite a rather formidable collection of signs and portents that she should choose Thorongil. "What care I for the hands of a king?" A fateful choice, and one that will come back to haunt them, though not in the way they imagine. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Bless you - thank you - I am doing a happy dance right now... Though I cannot read of Finduilas without knowing what the future has in store for her - I am so very happy that she finally told HIM but my heart breaks for her. I very much like her. Again, deepest thanks for putting me out of my misery - I was close to comatose waiting..... Two little corrections... carving on the lib - I think you meant lid. and when Denethor is serving the swans - there should be a comma, me thinks. Oh I forgot - I soooo love the thee's and thou's.... Agape

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Yes, I meant lid - fixed. It is hard to write the character as I know the end, and it is sad. There is a great deal of love between them and they will be together for so short a time. In Ch. 10, Proof, Denethor thinks about Beren and Luthien and remarks on how scant a time they had together, "Not even two score years". He and Finduilas will know each other only 14 years, and be wed for only 12 of those, less than Beren and Luthien. Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

I soooo love the thee's and thou's.... Me, too. I love this scene & many rereads. Julie grinning

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

She doesn't spend nearly as much time agonizing over the choice as Mr. Grumpy, and is willing to trust her own judgment despite a rather formidable collection of signs and portents that she should choose Thorongil. "What care I for the hands of a king?" A fateful choice, and one that will come back to haunt them, though not in the way they imagine She decides not to be an instrument of fate, but she ends up being one in many ways: after all, she is the mother of Boromir and Faramir, who play a fateful role in the Ring quest. Her early death shapes politics of Gondor for decades, and ultimately brings Thorongil's rule about anyway.

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

*tries to remain calm and avoid sounding like the crazy teenager & hopeless romantic she is* Brandir entertains me to no end and I adore him. Also, the very last line was inspired. I love Imrahil and Finduilas' little interlude at the table. Which reminds me, where was dearest Im at breakfast at the beginning of the chapter? Sleeping in? I love the sections where Finduilas reasons with herself about duty and love. I loved this section, too: "The ink smothered the flame...etc., etc." Beautiful. *sniffs* I cracked up when Findy realized she hadn't gotten a gift for her parents. Finduilas' comments to her overly ardent attention-giver were hillarious. "Surely I will...Its freezing, but go take a walk if you like" Denethor is quite the rescuer it seems. I always love when men give women their cloaks when its cold. Have I ever mentioned that I absolutely ADORE Brandir? I have no idea why, but I just love him to pieces. Thorongil almost didn't make me grit my teeth in this chapter! Almost. Wasn't it fun watching Mr. Grumpy's head explode? ;-) Yo, Dude, *thwap*. *big grins* Yes, as a matter of fact it was... *can contain herself no longer, sighs & melts into a pool of mushy goo much like Astara* What care I for the hands of a king?" *contented sighs* Hmmm....lovely. The revelation was perfect. I've never enjoyed "brick-throwing" more. Can't wait till "breakfast". How convient of Adrahil to invite him. Oh, almost forgot. I have gotten into the habit of printing out each chapter and having each page framed and hung on my wall...just kidding. But really, I do print out each chapter and have been feeding them to my kid sister who wishes me to tell you that you are her new favorite person in the world. So there you go. A final note: The guys are not helping matters. Since when do the guys ever help matters? Alright so I lied, another note: My mother listened to me ramble on and on about this chapter in the car today for about half an hour because I HAD to tell someone about it. (My sister was at school) Bless her soul, she pretended to understand and care. And as usual...I can't wait for more. Cheerio.

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Of course, the real fun is who is going to tell Thorongil that things are *not* going to go his way? Heh heh heh.... Fun fun fun fun fun!!! Fangirl puddle moments are perfectly acceptable... Here, here.

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

Wasn't it fun watching Mr. Grumpy's head explode? ;-) Yo, Dude, *thwap*. Definitely. For such a smart, wheels-within-wheels guy, Denethor was utterly clueless as to Finduilas' feelings. Hmm, I'm mentally contrasting his son's future ability to more or less talk Eowyn into dropping her infatuation for 'Thorongil' with Denny's cluelessness and sad assumption that Thorongil was going to get the woman Denny loved. (of course, I personally feel that Faramir's determined and successful wooing of lovelorn Eowyn had a lot to do with JRRT's having found the woman he had loved and lost and then, in one day, talking her out of a betrothal to someone else and into a future marriage with him - a definite sign that JRRT's skills with language were not limited to Elvish and Welsh and old norse dialects) She doesn't spend nearly as much time agonizing over the choice as Mr. Grumpy, and is willing to trust her own judgment despite a rather formidable collection of signs and portents that she should choose Thorongil. "What care I for the hands of a king?" A fateful choice, and one that will come back to haunt them, though not in the way they imagine. I don't think ANYONE spends as much time agonizing as the Tall, Dark, and Broody-Grumpy One! Do the signs and portents mean that if she had married Thorongil, he would have been able to heal her of the illness that caused her death? But if she'd married Thorongil without loving him, would not she have suffered too? Thorongil is obviously strongly attracted to Finduilas, and would have been perceptive enough to know after the marriage that she didn't love him; hmm, now that's also an interesting AU - Thorongil and Finduilas marrying while she really hankers after Denethor.... Thorongil might be used to things not going his way by now - he's the rightful King of Gondor and he's had to go tramping around as a sell-sword for years; he's used to controlling himself. Unless he was thinking of revealing himself, claiming the throne now, if he won the hand of the daughter of the second-most-powerful man in Gondor, a woman he happened to respect and like...which, if it were true, and Finduilas were the fateful catalyst in his decision to eventually leave Gondor (though he waits until Finduilas' first son is a toddler), I wonder what he thought when, later, the hands of a king was the only thing that could save Denethor and Finduilas' son. Interesting chapter, to say the least! I would think that at least, the knowledge that Finduilas loves him would really boost Denny's morale. RAKSHA THE DEMON

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

For such a smart, wheels-within-wheels guy, Denethor was utterly clueless as to Finduilas' feelings Yes, its beautiful, isn't it? now that's also an interesting AU - Thorongil and Finduilas marrying while she really hankers after Denethor.... Yes...very interesting indeed. I'd read it. Although it'd probably give me a twitch or something. Heck, just thinking about it might. *twitch*

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

And why wouldn't Finduilas fall in love with her Hound? He is a very sweet and dear man. Had his mother been legitimate, and he an acknowledged grandson of the Steward, it would have been an almost inevitable match. Certainly! Actually I like Beregar very much, just like Fin herself. He's got an extremely likable personaliy, he's loyal to Denethor, and he obviously adores Fin. I think that my attitude is actually quite the same as Adrahil's or Denethor's - I'm aware that because of his mother's status, he can never be an acceptable match for a daughter of Dol Amroth. Of course, Fin might have still fallen in love with him, even if she was aware they had no future, but I chose to ignore this possibility, probably the more so because I knew who of the canon characters ended up with whom. I would think that at least, the knowledge that Finduilas loves him would really boost Denny's morale. I hope so! I can't decide if it's a twisted sort of arrogance and pride which makes him go along so well with the way things have lately gone. It might rather be his love for Gondor combined with his sense of duty which keep him in MT. It's perfectly understandable if he can't imagine serving a King Thorongil. I've never doubted the depth and truth of Denethor's feelings, but nevertheless his concept of love is inseparately twinned with a domineering possessiveness. "I could not bear to watch her in the hands of another," is a very telling statement, which seems to be valid for both Gondor and Fin. It also foreshadows nicely RotK!Denethor who denies Aragorn's claim. Anyhoo, I found the question "‘And thou wouldst choose this thing before thee? Grim and cruel, as thou hast said?’" heartbreaking. It made me wonder about Denethor's self esteem. Perhaps his cold pride and sometime cruelty are just there to hide the insecurity deep down inside. The latter may also stem from the difficult relationship with Ecthelion.

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

I hope so! I can't decide if it's a twisted sort of arrogance and pride which makes him go along so well with the way things have lately gone. It might rather be his love for Gondor combined with his sense of duty which keep him in MT. It's perfectly understandable if he can't imagine serving a King Thorongil. I've never doubted the depth and truth of Denethor's feelings, but nevertheless his concept of love is inseparately twinned with a domineering possessiveness. "I could not bear to watch her in the hands of another," is a very telling statement, which seems to be valid for both Gondor and Fin. It also foreshadows nicely RotK!Denethor who denies Aragorn's claim. Anyhoo, I found the question "‘And thou wouldst choose this thing before thee? Grim and cruel, as thou hast said?’" heartbreaking. It made me wonder about Denethor's self esteem. Perhaps his cold pride and sometime cruelty are just there to hide the insecurity deep down inside. The latter may also stem from the difficult relationship with Ecthelion. Mmmm...absolutely. It seems that I was just having this conversation with my sister as I was explaining...hey...you're not spying on me are you? Just kidding, but more seriously, I'm really glad you posted this, put it into better words than I could. And I'd never looked at "I could not bear to watch her in the hands of another" like at. I'd only looked at what it meant about Gondor, but its so much more heartwrenching when you look at what it means about Gondor and Finduilas. Wow. I have very often wondered about Denethor's self-esteem, not just because of the difficult relationship with his father, but what about his mother? That's left some definite scars.

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

It seems that I was just having this conversation with my sister as I was explaining...hey...you're not spying on me are you? Just looking into my palantir. I'm really glad you posted this, put it into better words than I could. I'm kind of flattered, Denna, because I felt I wasn't communicating my thoughts well. but what about his mother? That's left some definite scars. Ah, it's very good you've drawn our attention to her! I might not be the only one who tends to underestimate her importance, simply because in HotK she hardly makes an appearence and dies fairly soon, while Ecthelion is still on stage and vexing his heir. (I don't even pretend to be objective on this matter, despite Ang pointing out on numerous occasions that he isn't an entirely bad person.)

 

 

Re: Ch. 23 - Betwixt

A palantir? I want one! Denethor's mother is never far from my consideration of his character, at least as it applies to it in HotK. I find her character strangely attractive and wonder muchly about her younger years. *coughs* *insert hint for Ang to add more flashbacks here * *coughs* As for Ecthelion not being an entirely bad person: The serious response: Ang's probably right ya know, he can't be all bad. (And neither will I pretend to be objective) The "I'm just kidding" response: Ecthelion's not all bad? Yes, and Sauron is the hero of our story. Might want to sell that somewhere else 'cause I ain't buyin' . I crack myself up! *coughs*

 

 

In Forums

Discussion Info

Intended for: General Audience

This forum is open to all HASA members. It is read-only for the general public.

Membership on HASA is free and it takes only a few minutes to join. If you would like to participate, please click here.

If you are already a member, please log in to participate.

« Back to Hands of the King

Stories linked to the forum