Forum: Resources Discussions

Discussing: To Do: Places

To Do: Places

(Please refer to this post for an overview.)

---- To Do: Place Entries ----
---- Revised: 2 Jul 06 ----

Andram
Andrath
Angle, The
Bay of Forochel
Bucklebury
Budgeford
Bywater Road
Calenhir
Celon
Crossings of Erui
Crossings of Poros
Forts on the Anduin
Green Hills (Shire)
Hills of Tarnost
Merethrond / Great Hall of Feasts
Mithrim
Rhimdath/Rushdown
Sandyman's Mill
Stock Road
Stonewain Valley
Straight Stair
Tookland
Trollshaws
Tuckborough
Tumladen — Gondolin
Vales of Anduin
Waymeet
Weather Hills
White Downs
Winding Stair
Woodhall
Woody End
Adorn DONE
Almaren DONE
Amon Ereb DONE
Araman DONE
Archet DONE
Arda DONE
Aros and/or Fords of Aros DONE
Ascar / Rathlóriel DONE
Avathar DONE
Bay of Eldamar DONE
Belegaer DONE
Bill Ferny's House DONE
Blackroot Vale DONE (= Morthond Vale)
Bonfire Glade DONE
Brandywine Bridge / Great Bridge / Bridge of Stonebows DONE
Calacirya DONE
Calembel DONE
Calmindon DONE
Caverns of Narog DONE
Caves of the Forgotten DONE
Chetwood DONE
Combe DONE
Cuiviénen DONE
Desolation of the Morannon DONE
Dome of Stars DONE
Durthang DONE
DONE
East Bight DONE
East Lórien DONE
Eastfarthing DONE
Elvenhome DONE
Ered Lómin DONE
Esgalduin DONE
Ezellohar DONE
Far Downs DONE
Firth of Drengist DONE
Gardens of Lórien DONE
Gates of Gondor DONE
Goblin-town DONE
Great Smials DONE
Greenholm DONE
Greylin DONE
Halls of Manwë and Varda / Ilmarin DONE
Hill of Guard DONE
Hill, The DONE
Hills of Scary DONE
Hollin Ridge DONE
Hollin DONE (= Eregion)
Ilmen DONE
Isenmouthe DONE
Lake Helevorn DONE
Lake Mithrim DONE
Lammoth DONE
Langwell DONE
Linhir DONE
Lockholes DONE
Long Cleeve DONE
Longbottom DONE
Losgar DONE
Marish, The DONE
Mindon Eldaliéva DONE
Mithrim DONE
Morgai DONE
Mount Gram DONE
Mount Rerir DONE
Mount Taras DONE
Mountains of Mirkwood DONE
Mountains of Mithrim DONE
Narrows of the Forest DONE
North Cape DONE
Oiolossë DONE (= Taniquetil)
Oiomúrë DONE
Orocarni DONE
Oromet DONE
Parth Celebrant DONE (= Field of Celebrant)
Party Field DONE
Region DONE
Road from Durthang to Udûn DONE
Road to Sarn Ford DONE
Sarn Athrad DONE
Sea of Helcar DONE
Sea, The DONE
Secret entrance to Erebor DONE
Shadowy Seas DONE
Slag-hills of the Morannon DONE
Smaug's Lair DONE
Sorontil DONE
South Downs DONE
Staddle DONE
Stair of the Hold DONE (= Road to Dunharrow)
Straight Road DONE
Thargelion DONE
Tol Uinen DONE
Tolfalas DONE
Topmost chamber of the White Tower DONE
Tower of Tar-Meneldur DONE
Tower of Tar-Minastir DONE
Tumladen — Gondor DONE
Túna DONE
Udûn (Mordor) DONE
Utumno (was: Udûn — North) DONE
Valmar / Valimar DONE
Vinyamar DONE
Westfarthing DONE

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Long Cleeve is done, and I'll put dibs on Archet as well.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Woohoo! Done.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added Halls of Manwë and Woodhall.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added: Lake Helvorn, Mount Rerir, Caverns of Narog, and moved the DONE entries to the end.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added: Caves of the Forgotten

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Please add "Oiolossë" to the list of places to-be-added.

Allie

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Allie!

Please add "Oiolossë" to the list of places to-be-added.

I apologize for not responding sooner!

Oiolossë is another name for Taniquetil, which is already in the database. So, I'll add it to the To-Do list as being "done"... Edit: Added.

We have several older threads that list the Places that have already been entered, and the Synonyms for those Places. I added "Oiolossë" as a synonym for "Taniquetil" to the Synonyms list here: Places Entered: Synonyms. The other threads are here (they don't sort to the top of the forum when I update them, because I just do an edit-in-place):

Places Entered: A - D
Places Entered: E - K
Places Entered: L - Q
Places Entered: R - Z

I have been trying to recruit someone to take over the maintenance of these threads -- it's very simple, I keep them in spreadsheets to sort easily... If you're interested, please let me know!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi! My first additions to resources are below. Please let me know if there should be any changes, or if you're looking for anything else I missed, etc. Still figuring out format and stuff.

Arda

Aros

Ascar

Calembel 

Will be adding more soon! 

docmon 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi docmon!

This is *excellent*! Welcome to Resources!

If you don't mind, I'll have to wait until tomorrow evening to read them and give you feedback, but I do want you to know that I'm pleased -- as we all are! -- that you've joined in with the fun!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Thank you for the welcome!

I don't want to go too far ahead without some feedback, but I did enter three or four more that I had sketched out this weekend. It will be a bit before I enter more, so you should have time to see them.

Caves of the Forgotten

Caverns of Narog

Combe

Chetwood

Again, let me know if there's anything else I should be adding, etc. Hopefully, I'll move along at a somewhat regular pace. I'm already up to 'D' so maybe this won't take so long... yeah, that's what I'll keep telling myself!

monica

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Monica,

I'm terribly sorry to put you off again, but I'm not feeling well today, getting over a migraine. I will try to look at your entries tomorrow.

Please forgive me for the delay.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Monica, pleased to see you diving right in! I'm starting to look these over, and probably won't get them all done right away. I just looked at Chetwood, and it looks very good! I did spot a typo (the bane of us all - please correct any of mine you spot) in 'revised'. I fixed it. I hope you don't mind that I also added etymology.

I will check a few more tonight, but I suspect I won't find many nitpicks, you'll fit right into the geek patrol.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I'm not feeling well today, getting over a migraine

I hope you feel better soon. Thoughts of Athelas wafting your way...

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I've looked through all of these, and the basics are good! On Caverns of Narog you have a quote, and I think you forgot to add the citation.

Not an error at all, it is fine, but Caverns of Narog may be work you didn't have to do. There is a Nargothrond entry, and I see that you have a sidelink to it.

I'll look at a few more tomorrow, or Barbara or Liz may. We occasionally have different approaches, and this helps realize what we have to reconcile.

Happy geeking!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Docmon

Great to have you on board and, my, have you been busy.

I haven't had time to look over your entries in detail (*sigh* pesky RL need to earn money) , but as Lyllyn said,. they look like a great start.

Lyllyn wrote: Not an error at all, it is fine, but Caverns of Narog may be work you didn't have to do.

*ahem* Actually not at an error in any way, shape or form, Lyllyn. . While I haven't looked at the two entries to check what's in them, I do know that the Caverns of Narog existed (and were inhabited by Petty-dwarves) before Finrod built the settlement of Nargothrond in them. It's a case of "same place + different time = different name" (like Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul) and I think does need two distinct entries (linked to each other, of course...).

Cheers, Liz



 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I do know that the Caverns of Narog existed (and were inhabited by Petty-dwarves) before Finrod built the settlement of Nargothrond in them. It's a case of "same place + different time = different name" (like Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul) and I think does need two distinct entries (linked to each other, of course...).

Good point! And a good reason for all of us to keep looking over each other's entries.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Archet is done.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Monica!

First, let me echo how pleased we all are that you are willing to take these on. It is always a pleasure to work with a new research volunteer!

You've made a great start with these entries but I do have some suggestions for changes you might want to make. (I apologize for taking so long to get these to you, was really under the weather for a couple of days.)

I also apologise if this feedback seems rather long, but I have an ulterior motive. At some point, we'd like to compile some sort of guidelines to help researchers understand what approaches work best. As Lyllyn mentioned, all the researchers have slightly different ways of doing things, so we don't have "standards" as such -- but we're all aiming to make resource library entries as helpful, easy to use and "authoritative" as we can. So giving you this feedback has given me a chance to pull together some generic recommendations that we can expand upon in the future for all researchers.

I'll use your Aros entry as an example to illustrate the comments:

Your first sentence, "A river beginning...", would be absolutely perfect to put in the "Location" field. I'm encouraging everyone to use that "Location" field as a Summary field that provides a snapshot of the key facts about the entry. (In fact, we are hoping to add a Summary field to all the other entry types, modeled on the Location field for Places.)

For rivers, say, the Location/Summary field would cover the fact that this Place is a "river", the source from which the river arises, whether it has tributaries flowing into it, what region(s) it flows through or between (since rivers are often boundaries), and where it ends... in fact, precisely what you have in your first sentence.

When it comes to the Description field, we encourage a compilation of whatever quotations can be found that add information about the Place. Where possible, we prefer to use "primary quotes" from Tolkien's own writings (those published in his lifetime, or those edited by Christopher Tolkien) as much as possible. We do quote the Atlas of Middle-earth, annotations from The Annotated Hobbit, and other sources occasionally, but would rather use Tolkien's words where we can find them. (If Lyllyn hasn't already shared ways of getting quotes into entries, please talk to her!)

For Places, I like to use quotes that describe the geography of and surrounding the Place, any economic activity that is associated with that place (for example, see the Northfarthing entry), any unique characteristics, such as roads, associated with the Place (see the Southfarthing), and the history of the Place (see the Westmarch). Of course, sometimes quotes simply aren't available: there's nothing describing the geography of the Southfarthing, for example. In cases like that, you can occasionally find useful quotations in the indices of the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and the various HoMe volumes. It looks like you've entered as many quotes as can be found on the Combe entry, for example, so you have already encountered the situation that some Places have lots of material, and others have very little...

We also encourage researchers to edit quotes down to focus on the particular topic, and to arrange them in an order that "tells the story" in a clear way. For example, in the Beleriand entry (which has a lot of material), the quotations are broken up up into East Beleriand and West Beleriand, and each is arranged from north to south along the Sirion river.

For each quote, we always want to include a citation. We've been standardizing on a format for the citations and have a spreadsheet of them from which we can copy-and-paste. I'll send you a Citations spreadsheet; and many of the citations can also be copied from Liz's reference article, which can also be accessed from the Resources Discussion workshop.

We also like to add in-text links, as well as the sidelinks you've already included. (If you're not ready to tackle these yet, don't worry -- but I encourage you to plan on including them when you are comfortable with the idea.) These help users explore topics more easily, by giving them a way to hop quickly to related items, and by showing exactly how the items are related. I maintain a Links spreadsheet as well, which I send out regularly to the other researchers, that allows us to copy-and-paste links into entries easily. I'm not sure if I've sent this to you yet, but I need to send out a new one today, because I just added a lot of entries to it. By the way, we try to link just once to each reference in a single entry, unless it is under a different name that may not be obvious to users. For example, in the Morgul-road entry, I have links from Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol, and the same links from "dead city" and Nameless Pass, much lower in the entry.

Monica, I hope this hasn't proved too overwhelming! I didn't intend for this to turn into an instruction manual, but I hope it helps, at least a little, and explains why the rest of us do what we do, and what sort of tools are available to make your life easier as a researcher.

If you can bear the length of the answer you may get please do feel free to ask us any more questions. We'll be happy to continue providing feedback on entries for as long as you want. We do that for each other all the time.

- Barbara

P.S. Oh, by the way, I found many quotes on Aros that I had in one of my raw quotes files (the one for Beleriand and environs)... I will copy them to a file and send them to you... some of them already have links, and they all have citations. They are raw quotes, so feel free to edit them down to the parts that focus on Aros...

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added:
Andram
Mithrim

Done:
Archet
Arda
Aros
Ascar
Calembel
Caves of the Forgotten
Caverns of Narog
Combe
Chetwood

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Done:
Desolation of the Morannon
Durthang

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Changed:
"Halls of Manwë" to "Ilmarin / Halls of Manwë & Varda"

 

 

Hello back!

Hi Lyllyn!

I've been trying to get back to posting entries all week, but I never even thought of checking here for replies. oops!

Thanks for checking on my entries. I sort of felt I was going in a bit blind. I had other entries to compare to, but I still felt unsure about what I was doing, especially for those entries where there was a lot of information to go through.   

I don't mind anyone adding to my entry - it does seem to be a group effort here, which seems the best way to go about it, too. And thanks for catching the typo. I do hate when I miss those, seeing as I'm an editor 'n stuff...

I will check on what I have put up for the Caverns of Narog entry, to see if I missed a citation. I was doing that a lot at first. And I saw the slight difference b/w the Caverns & Nargothrond, so I tried to focus on that for the Caverns, since there already was one for Narg, then linked to it. I hope it made sense that way. 

I'm going to reply to Elena's posts separately - I've missed so many! So, i'll be back...

 mon

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Elena!

Thanks for your comments and for your welcome. I was even later in responding than you in giving them, so I think we're even. (and I hope you're migraine-free for a while.)

Comments on Aros example: A-hah! that's for me actually. I kinda figured out, from looking at a few - after posting a couple of entries already - that the Location line was being used as a sort of summary line. So after the first couple I think I started to do that. Maybe I didn't go back to that one. Although, with Aros, I think I was a bit confused and overwhelmed. Between the river and the Fords, it was really hard to know what info was applicable... So I take it I can move that first line to the Location and make it an overall summary. Got it.

I don't think I've looked specifically for information such as economic activity, but it may have gotten in there if I found it (more randomly, in other words). But your examples makes it much clearer what I'm looking for. And I will be the first to admit that I wasn't organizing the quotes very well. Whatever seemed to me the most vital information I tried to put first... and that was the extent of my organization!

The citation article that is on the site has been terrific. I have received a spreadsheet from you, and I'm not sure if it's the new one or the old one, since i can't remember  when you sent it. What I did go crazy looking for one day was an article or forum post that listed the codes for special characters. I found it the first time I was posting and never again. If anyone knows where that is, I'd love to know!

I totally put off doing the in-text links. Two reasons: when I first tried to put a link into my story discussion, it took many tries before I got it right. And Lyllyn mentioned something about changing the way they did it, for cross-referencing, I think. But I wasn't entirely sure which links she wanted me to hold off on, so I kinda skipped that... We can go over that, and if I have specific guidelines, I can go for it. You've given some, like about entering each once per entry, but also how to decide when to link something at all, as well as in-text vs. sidbar linking, would be helpful.

I've got a bunch more entries lined up for posting, but I basically only have my weekends for this, so it'll go as it goes. But I will say, I chose the right area. I enjoy geography and maps, so this has really been a treat!

thanks for all your help!

mon 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Mon,
The article on special characters is here. You can also find it under Research Articles, Help: Technical, HTML Special Characters.

For linking, we all judge slightly differently. For me, I do intext links when I feel the link is directly relevant, otherwise sidelinks. So in my First Age battle entries, I link the first mention of someone involved in the battle, also each place relevant to the battle. I realize that most entries I did after we started putting in links were either events, or wierd places like the Hither Lands - not sure they are good examples. Also, I see I left links out of Long Cleeve and Archet - have to revise...

HTH

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi again!

Well, phew! I entered a bunch today, and I hope I've been able to follow the guidelines you've explained and get things more in line with the "standard.". As someone mentioned, some are long and some are short, just because of the information available. But I hope I haven't missed anything too much! And let me know if my quotes are still too long/short/out-of-context/irrelevant. I still don't feel I always have a handle on whether something should be included.

On the linking thing: what you've laid out there makes sense. I realize now that, if you notice an overabundance of sidelinks, that's my way of avoiding the in-text links! If I do have the latest spreadsheet (Elena was going to send me the latest, and I wasn't sure which one I had) I will try, but I am a bit anxious about that! And thanks for the link to the special characters. I actually finally found it today, but thanks anyway!

Here's the latest DONE ones:

Elvenhome

Esgalduin

Far Downs

Gardens of Lorien

Goblin-town

Great Smials

Greenholm

and that's it for today, and probably for this week. Oh, but I wanted to give some feedback on the resources site, since Lyllyn mentioned you were trying to do a revamp. Just some things I've noticed along the way as I've been posting entries, so they're just for those working on editing Resources, rather than regular users, I'm afraid. And I could very well be mistaken, and you can do the things I'd like to do - and I just don't know how. Just let me know!

It would be great if there was a way that I could see a preview of my entry (as it would look to any member) after I hit Add, without having to leave the Admin section. (actually I simply open another window for that, but still, it would be easier.)

Can there be a link to the link page right from the page where we add our entry? I mean rather than having to go to the list of that letter and click on link, it would be great to go to the links directly.

I think that's it. If I think of more, I'll let you know.

ciao for now,

mon 

 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added:
Bay of Forochel
Bonfire Glade
Glanduin
Merethrond / Great Hall of Feasts
Weather Hills

Completed (very nice job, Docmon!):
Dome of Stars
Elvenhome
Esgalduin
Far Downs
Gardens of Lórien
Goblin-town
Great Smials
Greenholm

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Thank you, Elena!

I'll be adding some places today, but I'll post them when I'm done. I wanted to note, while I remember, to mention one difficulty I've been having, in case someone would like to know (don't know exactly who deals with this sort of thing). When I add a place, I've been doing a general search to see what other sections could possibly be linked to it. Often entries that I know exist don't come up, and I'm not sure if it's how I'm entering the search keyword or what. Today I did a search for "Minas Tirith", which is in places under "Minas Tirith - Gondor." Well, lots of entries came up in most sections - except places. The only way I could make Minas Tirith come up was to search "cities, etc." in "Gondor". I didn't capitalize though - could that be the problem? I don't think so, because no less than 98 events came up under that search term. I even did a search using the exact title of the MT entry, but nothing.

I just thought it was worth noting - if someone tried to search for the place MT, they wouldn't come up with what they were looking for.

hope this is helpful,

mon

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I'm back, with some questions...

I am making an entry for 'Hollin Ridge,' but all the information I'm finding is for Hollin in general. I don't know whether to post it in this entry, make the entry for Hollin itself (which doesn't exist as far as I can tell) or whether I'm missing something. Please let me know what you think!

I might as well mention now I found no information on the following (that are in the list of Places To Do):

Halls of Manwë

Hills of Tarnost

Mount Gram

Rhimdath/Rushdown

Any help in finding info on these would be appreciated, even if just pointing me in the right direction.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Ok, here's what I got done today!

Hill of Guard

Hills of Scary

Hollin Ridge (see my question in previous post)

Isenmouthe

Lake Helevorn (should this be under L or H?)

Linhir

Morgai

and that's all folks!

mon 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi docmon!

This is not your problem -- I did a search yesterday, and no Places came up. I will report the problem to Tech Support (Ang).

- Barbara

Edit: Ang has resolved the problem.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi docmon!

I am making an entry for 'Hollin Ridge,' but all the information I'm finding is for Hollin in general. I don't know whether to post it in this entry, make the entry for Hollin itself (which doesn't exist as far as I can tell) or whether I'm missing something.

There is already an entry for Hollin, under the name Eregion; I haven't looked at it recently, so don't remember how extensive it is.

IIRC, when the Fellowship reached Hollin Ridge, there was a mention of how much distance they had covered from Rivendell.... that would be the kind of info you could include, as long as any mentions of what they saw from there. I do recall an entry for the Elven-way from Hollin to Moria, but don't remember if it was on the Hollin Ridge that they saw part of it. If nothing else, you could describe what it looks like on a map (I'm looking at Fonstadt's Atlas of ME): a spur of hills running west from the Misty Mountains from north of the Mountains of Moria).

I don't remember much about the other three, but if I find any information about them, I'll pass it along.

Which reminds me: I have tidbits (raw quotes) files for several of the items on our Places list, but no time to enter them any time soon. (These are most of the Places that have my name beside them). Would you like me to send you what I have, so you can enter whatever you like from among those? In other words, I will *gladly* relinquish my "dibs" if it means that the entries will actually get done, since I am concentrating more on Events than Places!

Let me know what you think....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Ok, here's what I got done today!

Congratulations! I am so thrilled that you are doing these! Thank you!

I, personally, would put Lake Helevorn under 'L'... but we really don't have any standards.... one of the things we would like to do in the Resources Redesign is to allow multiple index letters for an entry, so we could use both 'L' and 'H'....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I might as well mention now I found no information on the following (that are in the list of Places To Do)

Forgot to mention: I have seen some tiny bits on the Halls of Manwë... will try to dig them up and send them to you via email.

- Barbara

Edit: Sent. There were actually quite a few bits, all tiny....

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added:
The Hill
Valmar / Valimar

Done:
Hill of Guard
Hills of Scary
Hollin Ridge
Isenmouthe
Lake Helevorn
Linhir
Morgai

 

 

Re: Hollin

Thank you for those tips, Elena. I will change the entry to use more of that information from the Atlas and any mention of when they camped. If I haven't linked it to Eregion/Hollin, I will do it.

 Speaking of Hollin, I found I was very unsure of when to link within the text, and when to use the sidebar. If you look at maybe the last couple entries I did - Morgai, for example. I tried to make judgments on which was what, but if you think the in-text linking should be used more, or vice versa, let me know.

Once again, it'll probably be the weekend until I get to more, but until then!

monica

 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi again!

I'm finally getting back to these, and I noticed I never posted the places I had gotten to the last time. It's just nice to see them checked off, isn't it? So you may cross these off the list:

Mount Gram
Mount Rerir
Party Field
Region
Road from Durthang to Udûn
Road to Sarn Ford
South Downs
Staddle 

I could not find any information on the Place "Rhimdath/Rushdown." If anyone can point me a direction, that would be appreciated muchly! Also any suggestions for additions or changes to these, or any others I've done, are welcome.

Off to do some more! 

monica 

 

 

question

question...

I was adding a place tonight, and I was just finishing it off when I noticed in the links table a link for the same place - under a different name! Since pretty much everything I've done has been covered in the other one, I'm wondering if I should add the bit that is new to the existing one. The existing entry is Road to Dunharrow, and the one I did was Stair of the Hold. Basically what I would add is text from the Atlas of Middle-earth that described the terrain a bit more. I just feel like I should say something or check with the author before making changes to their entry.

If people believe these to be different enough to warrant two entries let me know. But I think they're pretty much the same thing, aren't they?

oh well, learn my lesson, check the database beforehand!

mon 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I've been sneakily watching and adding these to the 'Places done' lists as you've been working

Keep up the good work!

For Road to Dunharrow, that is Barbara's entry, so I'll step back and leave you two to consult...

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Hollin

Hi Monica,

... I found I was very unsure of when to link within the text, and when to use the sidebar.

My personal preference is to link everything that's mentioned in the quotes with in-text links (once only), AND then use the sidebar links for the few most-closely related items, especially any items that are closely related, but are not mentioned in the quotes.

For example, I just added an entry for the Topmost Chamber of the White Tower, and I sidelinked it to Tower of Ecthelion (but not the Citadel, or Minas Tirith, or Gondor), and to Palantíri and Stewards of Gondor, because the chamber houses the palantír and only the Kings and the Stewards had access to it (we don't have a Kings of Gondor entry -- yet), and to Denethor II and the events having to do with Denethor using the palantír in that chamber. I did not link it to the event describing Denethor's suicide, though the palantír figured prominently in it, because that didn't occur in the chamber. (Sorry, this turned into a more complicated example than I thought....)

I can explain how I use the sideline links best by describing Events, rather than Places, because I do a lot more of those: for an event that is part of a sequence of sub-events under an Overview (major) event, I use the sidebar links to link to 1) the related Overview, 2) the immediately preceding (causative) event, and 3) the immediately following (consequential) event.

In my long and checkered career in Resources, I've gone to both extremes with the sidelinks: either sidelinking everything even peripherally related, or not using sidelinks at all. I don't recommend either extreme .

Each of us has a different style; just do what you think is right, and you'll develop a "style" that you're comfortable with.

Hope this helps!
- Barbara

 

 

Re: question

Hi Monica!

Yes, the Road to Dunharrow is "mine"; in general, I encourage anyone to add quotes to my entries any time.... if you happen to think of it, I'd appreciate a note (email or post here is fine) letting me know, but that's only so I can update the text files that I keep.

I was adding a place tonight, and I was just finishing it off when I noticed in the links table a link for the same place - under a different name! Since pretty much everything I've done has been covered in the other one, I'm wondering if I should add the bit that is new to the existing one. The existing entry is Road to Dunharrow, and the one I did was Stair of the Hold.

If it adds new information, I'd add it to the existing entry, and delete your new one.

oh well, learn my lesson, check the database beforehand!

I've accidentally added duplicate entries, too, more than once.... so don't be concerned. And, it does help that the search engine is capturing Places again.... thanks to Ang for fixing that tricky problem....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi again Monica,

I could not find any information on the Place "Rhimdath/Rushdown." If anyone can point me a direction, that would be appreciated muchly!

I just did a quick search through the Hobbit, LoTR, Silm, and UT, and couldn't find it... but I found this by searching the Index of HoME (it's not clear which "Wilderland map" is being referred to, for the river is not named in the LoTR map nor the one in UT edit: (though it is shown on both maps):

Another name added to the Wilderland map was Rhimdath 'Rushdown', the river flowing from the Misty Mountains into Anduin north of the Carrock....

The Return of the Shadow, HoME Vol 6, Part 1, Ch 11, From Weathertop To The Ford: Notes , "Note on the Entish Lands"

Hope this helps!
- Barbara

P.S. I am removing my name from the Places entries that I had "dibs" on - I focus on Events, and only do the Bios, Things, and Places that are related to the Events I'm working on at the moment... so I probably won't be doing them in this lifetime.... However, I would be more than happy to send you any Tidbits (raw quotes) files I have for Places, if you'd like to tackle them.... no use duplicating effort to find quotes....

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added:
Amon Ereb
Trollshaws

In progress:
Morthond Vale / Blackroot Vale
Tolfalas
Utumno / Udûn — North

Done:
Bill Ferny's House
East Lórien
Gates of Gondor
Greylin
Langwell
Mount Gram
Mount Rerir
Mountains of Mirkwood
Party Field
Region
Road from Durthang to Udûn
Road to Sarn Ford
Secret entrance to Erebor
Smaug's Lair
South Downs
Staddle
Topmost chamber of the White Tower

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Barbara, thanks for your list - Places Done is now updated. I've left off the "in progress" ones - I'll add those when done. Also, you can cross Brandywine Bridge off the list at the head of this thread.

Pondering which place will grab me next... probably Longbottom.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Lyllyn!

I've crossed off the Brandywine Bridge (which is also called "Great Bridge" somewhere), and also Thargelion, which Docmon did.... so the Places To-do list is updated as of today.

I've been meaning to ask: would you mind if I changed the name of the "Inn of the Prancing Pony" entry to "Prancing Pony, The"? That seems to be the most-frequently used name, including on the sign. (I added a couple quotes recently, and an entry for Butterbur, so that's why it came up.)

Oh, and for your Places list: I had added Trollshaws as a synonym for the Ettenmoors (aka Ettendales or Troll-fells), but that turned out to be a mistake, so I've removed it (and added Trollshaws to the To-do list )

- Barbara

Edit: Also crossed off the Stair of the Hold.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Feel free to change the name of the Prancing Pony - I think that's a pretty old entry. I'll remove Trollshaws from the "done" list.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I've changed the name of The Prancing Pony, and I also added Great Bridge as a synonym to the Brandywine Bridge entry, as well as a couple quotes that I stole from the Great East-West Road entry (distances from the Bridge to a couple places in the Shire).

I'm realizing that I had a couple entries on the list that already existed (like Brandywine Bridge?)... if you see that, let me know and I'll remove it..... I get inspirations late at night and add them to the To-Do list without checking sometimes..... sorry!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

In Progress:
Blackroot Vale (should be: Morthond Vale)
Tolfalas
Udûn — North (should be: Utumno)

Added
Bywater Road
Tumladen — Gondolin (sorry, didn't realize there were two!)
Waymeet

Done
Eastfarthing
Hill, The
Marish, The
Thargelion
Tumladen — Gondor
Westfarthing

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Docmon,

In the Mount Gram entry, I changed the Orc's name from Gol-firnbul to Golfimbul... that's the kind of anomaly that is created by OCR software when it's used to convert images of text.... it's something that you'll get experience at looking for, as you see "weird" words sprinkled occasionally through the e-texts....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Just adding that Udun, Mordor-style, has been done! Hopefully, done well. I should ask if I could put as a 'meaning' for Udun, the definition I found for the original Udun, "underdwelling" or some such thing. I didn't put it in basically because I found it at the Encyclopedia of Arda. Nowhere else, in the Silmarillion index, or other reliable source, could I find the name defined.

Happy Turkey Day everyone!

mon

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Happy turkey day!

As for Udun, I haven't seen it in "Guide to names" either. The only other thing you could try is posting in the languages discussion and see if any of our language experts could shed any light.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Just adding that Udun, Mordor-style, has been done!

Excellent! Thank you, docmon! It looks great!

I did change the citation in that entry for The Atlas of Middle-earth -- we decided a long time ago to avoid using page numbers in citations, because there are so many different editions of books around (especially Tolkien's books). However, if you look at the Citations spreadsheet, the last tab (labelled "Other") has model citations for the Atlas and for Letters. I used the term "map name" in the citation, but that applies also to the "section name", in this case, "Mordor (and Adjacent Lands)".

And I found quotes for the "other" Udûn entry and renamed it to Utumno, so that entry is also now complete.

As far as the meaning of Udûn, if you look in the Appendix of the Silm, there is an entry for "tum" (which was misspelled "turn" in my electronic copy), which indicates that it means 'valley', but that is the only element that I've found a meaning for. It does show that Utumno is the Quenya variant of the Sindarin Udûn, so if we find out what the rest of either one of them means, it should apply to the other.

And I, too, believe that we do not want to copy any information whatsoever from the Encyclopedia of Arda, because it is not attributed. (And even if it did contain citations, we would want to work with the original texts, not the EoA's versions of them.)

- Barbara

And Happy Thanksgiving!

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

In progress:
Blackroot Vale (should be: Morthond Vale)

Added:
Angle, The
Shadowy Seas

Done:
Calmindon
Ezellohar
North Cape
Orocarni
Oromet
Sea of Helcar
Sorontil
Tol Uinen
Tolfalas
Tower of Tar-Meneldur
Tower of Tar-Minastir
Udûn (Mordor)
Utumno (was: Udûn — North)
Valmar / Valimar

Removed (existing):
Andúnië
Glanduin

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Ok, caught up after the nutsiness of preparing and cleaning up from Thanksgiving! Thanks for the list - very helpful.

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Lyllyn!

You're welcome! Since you'll probably be adding the synonyms to your list, would it be helpful if I listed the links to the new entries, rather than just the names? So you could check for synonyms by going down the list?

Let me know... I add the links to the Links spreadsheet anyway, so it's not much bother to copy the new ones to the To Do: Places spreadsheet.....

- Barbara

 

 

Elvenhome entry

Hi Docmon,

I've made a few changes to your Elvenhome entry, triggered by the fact that I added a new, separate entry for the Bay of Eldamar (among others).

I removed 'Tol Eressëa' and 'Lonely Isle' from the Other Names field; they are not synonyms for Elvenhome. I also added 'Elendë' as a synonym.

I moved the quotes that you had used for Elvenhome to the Bay of Eldamar entry, since they focused on the bay, rather than the land; and I added quotes describing the land.

I'd also like to rename the entry from 'Elvenhome' to 'Eldamar', since that name is used almost four times as many times in the Silm as 'Elvenhome'. Let me know if that's okay with you.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

In progress:
Blackroot Vale (should be: Morthond Vale)

Done:
Almaren
Avathar
Bay of Eldamar
Calacirya
Mindon Eldaliéva
Shadowy Seas
Túna

 

 

Re: Elvenhome entry

Hi ET!

Actually, I'm quite pleased to hear you 'fixed up' my Elvenhome entry. That one kinda gave me grief - a lot actually. It was hard to tell what was not really Bay of Eldamar and what was properly Elvenhome information. So I'm sure it's much better now. And you're right, it really should be called Eldamar. It was rarely refererd to as Elvenhome, but I was going by the entry as it already existed. (I was new to it all then!)

Thanks for your patience! Now that I've gone through the list on a first run, I was going to go through it again (now that some that were labeled in process no longer are) and check over some of the ones I did, especially those in the beginning where I wasn't always consistent, cuz I really didn't know what I was doing. So hopefully those will be improved soon, especially those early in the alphabet!

mon

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi again,

I did change the citation in that entry for The Atlas of Middle-earth -- we decided a long time ago to avoid using page numbers in citations, because there are so many different editions of books around (especially Tolkien's books).

You know, I didn't even think of the Atlas as having that problem, even though it says "Revised Edition." But it certainly makes sense. I can change my previous entries too. (eventually )

However, if you look at the Citations spreadsheet, the last tab (labelled "Other") has model citations for the Atlas and for Letters.

I usually use the Citations "story" page on the site, just because I usually am using other pages on the site too. I didn't know you had included the Atlas in your spreadsheet or I would definitely have gone there (I've been typing my citations for it all along). thanks for the tip.

ok, back to work!

mon

 

 

Re: Elvenhome entry

Actually, I'm quite pleased to hear you 'fixed up' my Elvenhome entry. That one kinda gave me grief - a lot actually.

LOL! I'm not surprised! Tolkien has the habit of sprinkling tiny references throughout the Silm, and, to make it more confusing, uses different words for the same thing, like Eldamar, Elvenhome, and Elendë. His writing drives me nuts sometimes! I've been trying to work out the differences between Aman, Valinor, Undying Lands, Blessed Realm, etc..... and it's confusing, to say the least! (And Tolkien is sometimes inconsistent with himself.... or his characters are....)

Anyway, I changed the name of the Elvenhome entry to Eldamar, and fixed up the "Other Names" field accordingly.

Thanks for your patience! Now that I've gone through the list on a first run, I was going to go through it again (now that some that were labeled in process no longer are) and check over some of the ones I did, especially those in the beginning where I wasn't always consistent, cuz I really didn't know what I was doing.

You're more than welcome! And I am glad to hear that you are gaining confidence as you gain more experience, that's a very good sign! Yes, bringing older entries up to your current standards is always a good idea...

I'm going to have to go through all the entries I've made in the last few days after I recover from this cold.... cough medicine does very strange things to my mind... I just hope the entries I made were coherent....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I didn't know you had included the Atlas in your spreadsheet or I would definitely have gone there (I've been typing my citations for it all along). thanks for the tip.

You're welcome... I'm a firm believer in copy-and-paste whenever it can be used...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Since you'll probably be adding the synonyms to your list, would it be helpful if I listed the links to the new entries, rather than just the names?

Thanks! I'm sure I'm missing lots of synonyms.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I'll tackle the East Bight. I already have a number of references for it that I gleaned when researching a story - plus the meaning and etymology of the word bight, which turned up in a recent A.Word.A.Day e-mail (which delighted the word geek in me ).

~Nessime

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Nessime,

That's great! I was going to do an article "someday" about man/Dwarf-made ecological disasters in Middle-earth, like deforestation, so I have a bunch of linked tidbits (raw quotes) that I'll send to you...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

I have a bunch of linked tidbits (raw quotes) that I'll send to you...

They arrived safely in my e-mail this morning. Thank you!

~Ness

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

In progress:
Blackroot Vale (should be: Morthond Vale)

Done:
Araman
Lockholes
Oiomúrë
Sea, The (formerly: Belegaer)

 

 

Re: the East Bight

I've added the rough beginning for the East Bight (but no links - yet ).

~Ness

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Great work, and thanks for the links, Barbara! I've added the names, and will also keep an eye on East Bight.

How would you feel about one of us adding a 'dummy' entry for Belegaer? I think many people might look under that.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Great work, and thanks for the links, Barbara!

You're welcome....

How would you feel about one of us adding a 'dummy' entry for Belegaer? I think many people might look under that.

Sure, no problem!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: the East Bight

I've added the rough beginning for the East Bight (but no links - yet ).

Hi Nessime

Thanks for making a start on this! I wanted to check whether I've sent you the Links and Citations spreadsheets or not, as I think they may make life easier for you.

The indexed Links spreadsheet allows you to quickly find existing entries and copy and paste appropriately formatted links into entries, instead of having to scour the database and create each link manually.

Similarly, the Citations spreadsheet contains the standard formats we've been using for citations, and copying and pasting them is much easier than typing things in from scratch....

Do you want me to send them to you?

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

How would you feel about one of us adding a 'dummy' entry for Belegaer? I think many people might look under that.

Hi Lyllyn,

Just looked at your entry -- and I was shocked to discover that I had left out the Etymology for Belegaer! *blush*

So, thanks for reminding me, and I did add the one I had to your Belegaer entry -- feel free to cut it down if you don't think it needs all the examples.....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: the East Bight

I wanted to check whether I've sent you the Links and Citations spreadsheets or not, as I think they may make life easier for you...

Do you want me to send them to you?


Please, yes! You do not want to know what I went through getting the links (in the quoted text) to work. I thought I would go mad before they were finally done.

~Ness

 

 

Re: the East Bight

Please, yes! You do not want to know what I went through getting the links (in the quoted text) to work. I thought I would go mad before they were finally done.

LOL! That's exactly why I started the spreadsheets, so once I figured out how to do a link or a citation, I never had to re-create it!

It will take me a day or two to incorporate all the new links into the Links spreadsheet, but I'll send them out as soon as I can.

So glad you're back and adding stuff! We need all the "stuff" we can get.....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

So, thanks for reminding me, and I did add the one I had to your Belegaer entry -- feel free to cut it down if you don't think it needs all the examples.....


No problem, Barbara, you and others now have me somewhat trained to think of etymology. Thanks for adding the 'ëar' part, which I missed. As to the examples, I don't think that's a problem, although I don't know that any of them need to be links.

Lyllyn

 

 

another Place to be added

In putting together the material for the East Bight I've noticed that there is no entry for The Narrows of the Forest ("...the narrow "waist" of Mirkwood in the south, caused by the indentation of the East Bight").

Shall I go ahead and add that one too?

~Nessime

 

 

Re: another Place to be added

Hi Nessime!

Shall I go ahead and add that one too?

Sure! Great idea!

Just because something is not on our To Do list doesn't mean that we don't want it done -- it just means that I haven't thought to add it to the list. For example, I just added The Straight Road because I was working with the defining quotes for the Downfall of Númenor.

So, feel free to add anything that's missing, or suggest things that should be added to the list...

Thank you!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: another Place to be added

I've added the following to Places Done:

East Bight
Ered Lómin
Firth of Drengist, The
Halls of Manwë and Varda
Lake Mithrim
Lammoth
Losgar
Mithrim
Mount Taras
Mountains of Mithrim
Vinyamar

Have I missed any? I didn't check for a few days and lots appeared!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

In Progress:
Blackroot Vale (should be: Morthond Vale)

New:
Narrows of the Forest
Sandyman's Mill

Done:
Belegaer
East Bight
Ered Lómin
Firth of Drengist
Halls of Manwë and Varda
Ilmen
Lake Mithrim
Lammoth
Losgar
Mithrim
Mount Taras
Mountains of Mithrim
Straight Road (this looks like the only one you missed, Lyllyn!)
Vinyamar

 

 

Re: another Place to be added

I just added the Narrows of the Forest, and I've added some links within the text of the East Bight - and keep discovering people, places and things that need entries (I'd forgotten how dangerous doing this can be ).

Somewhat OT for this topic: I have to take a look at some of the timeline entries, particularly those to do with Éomer's pursuit of the Orcs, and the Muster of Rohan; information concerning Tolkien's efforts to justify the moonphases as they were observed by different characters in different places somehow got lost in the original publication of LotR and never got corrected (and has been driving me insane because it has a decided impact on my Rohirric romance - not to mention the perception of certain actions taken by Éomer and Wormtongue).

I'll post (e-mail?) the relevant portions of the text to you when I get it copied so you can have a look for yourselves.

~Nessime

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Straight Road and Narrows of the Forest added. Blackroot Vale (synonym entry) linked to Morthond Vale entry.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Added:
Blackroot Vale
Bonfire Glade
Longbottom
Narrows of the Forest

 

 

Re: another Place to be added

Somewhat OT for this topic: I have to take a look at some of the timeline entries, particularly those to do with Éomer's pursuit of the Orcs, and the Muster of Rohan; information concerning Tolkien's efforts to justify the moonphases as they were observed by different characters in different places somehow got lost in the original publication of LotR and never got corrected (and has been driving me insane because it has a decided impact on my Rohirric romance - not to mention the perception of certain actions taken by Éomer and Wormtongue).

I'll post (e-mail?) the relevant portions of the text to you when I get it copied so you can have a look for yourselves.


Hi Nessime,

I'm so sorry I didn't reply to this post at a reasonable time -- I kind of "disappeared" around the holidays....

The events that you mention are probably all mine, so if you find any relevant changes to dates or other information, please let me know. You are most welcome to change the entries, as well, or I will make the changes, whichever you prefer. My only concern is that I wish to keep my external files up-to-date whenever changes are made to the Event entries, so they are always synchronized with the database.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Blackroot Vale
Bonfire Glade
Longbottom
Narrows of the Forest

all added to the "done" list.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hello folks!

Sorry to have been rather quiet, been busy. But just to prevent the duplication of efforts, I've started work on Amon Ereb.

docmon

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Sorry to have been rather quiet, been busy.

Welcome back!

But just to prevent the duplication of efforts, I've started work on Amon Ereb.

Ok, great! Ang is doing quite a bit of work on the researcher side, so if you hit anything odd, let her know - please help test!

lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi there!

Just posted the entry Amon Ereb. Please take a look when you have a moment, and let me know if anything needs to be changed, added, subtracted, translated  ;-). If I went crazy with the links, you could mention that too. Still trying to find the balance.

It was complicated to decide what entries to include, since I looked through HoME (electronic files, so errors possible). I omitted a lot of repeated material when they differed slightly from the Silmarillion, since it seemed to be just a difference in versions. I took the Silmarillion as the latest version and therefore most accurate. Let me know if that's not the way to go.

Hopefully, I'll get to another one soon, but it looks like it'll be this once in a while thing for a while. Inching along, then...

 

docmon 

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Great! I'll check it out. And definitely Sil over HoMe in most circumstances. We have a source heirarchy posted in the Workshop under Tools and Templates if you ever are unsure.

Slow but steady is good, and we have some nice new toys coming soon...

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Docmon!

I tried to change the status of your Amon Ereb entry so that it would be visible to members, but the HTML editor deleted all your line breaks! *grumble*

So, I went back in and edited the entry to put line breaks back in between the entries and the citations... I had to do it in a hurry, so please check that I did it correctly. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to look at the original quotes to see if there were paragraph breaks *within* the text, so any of those will be lost, unless you put them back in. (Fortunately, the quotations were relatively short, so maybe they didn't have multiple paragraphs?) To insert a line break (or actually two, so there will be a blank line between paragraphs), edit the entry, place the cursor at the right spot, and press SHIFT-enter.

*sigh* I'm sorry! my intent was not to touch the Description field whatsoever, just change the status.....

Oh, while I was editing, I did remove the "From" from your citations.... please just copy the spreadsheet for the citations, leaving a blank line before them (for now). They will show up beautifully when we fully implement Ang's gorgeous style classes... look at some of my new entries to see how they will look.

Anyway, sorry for inadvertently messing with your entry -- it was most unexpected and unplanned!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Done:
Amon Ereb
Slag-hills of the Morannon

 

 

Re: To Do: Places

Hi Barbara,

Thanks for letting me know. I understand that computers do things we don't want them to! I looked over the entry and as far as I could tell there was only one line break missing that I reinserted. Not to worry.

I'll keep in mind the format of not using a 'From' line in the future - that is, whenever I get a moment to do another entry!

docmon

 

 

Just looking for an update...

Hi there!

I've  finally been able to get back to this, and wanted to add a place (Andram, begun, at least). But the new entries look so different, I wanted to get an update on the proper format for entries these days. 

Thanks,

docmon 

 

 

Re: Just looking for an update...

Hi docmon!

Wow, I've been very bad about keeping up the list of Places (etc.) that I've added in the last few months... sorry! I'll try to update them as soon as I have some spare time.

Anyway, there's just a few things to keep in mind for a Place entry (most of which apply to other entry types, as well):

In the Location field, I prefer to put a summary, stating not just where the Place is, but what it is, e.g. A mountain range in Eriador, or something like that (at a bare minimum).

Ang has implemented really gorgeous paragraph styles for us to use in the main body of entries, which I think make them more attractive and also more readable. For Places, the most common styles will be quotations/citations, and comments.

For a simple quotation/citation combo, which will appear in blue for the quotation and white for the citation, use this HTML:

<blockquote class="quote">First paragraph of quotation...<br /><br />

Second paragraph...<br /><br />

Last paragraph of quotation.

<p class="cite">citation as copied from the Citations spreadsheet</p></blockquote>

Notice that you only need <br /><br /> between multiple paragraphs within the same quotation block.

For the (relatively rare) comment, which will appear in tan, use this HTML:

<blockquote class="comment">Text of comment...</blockquote>

Again, use <br /><br /> for paragraph breaks, or just <br /> for line breaks.

Also, I prefer to edit quotations down a lot, so that they only include the descriptions of the Place... in particular, I try to cut out as much of the "Frodo went there..." and "Sam said this...."-type narrative, if it doesn't add to the picture of the Place.... (of course, that part of the narrative often gets put into a related Event, so it's not lost ) (And, btw, I've gotten more and more vicious about editing down to the minimum the more experience I have, so don't feel odd if you go back to an old entry you made and want to make it better... happens to me all the time )

Once you have your text ready to paste into the main body of the entry, go into Edit mode (the pencil icon on the Recent Places list), press the "HTML" button next to the palette on the toolbar, then paste your text into the popup edit screen, and press the "Update" button on the bottom.

And the last thing to remember is that, with the new Status field, you have three Status values (Stub (the default), In Progress, and Review) that do not appear to readers.... in order to make the entry visible to readers, you have to set the value to Preliminary, Basic, or Complete. You cannot do this in the Add screen, you can only do it when you Edit the previously-added entry. When I create or update an entry, I usually leave it at Review for a day or two, until I get a chance to come back and look at it again (yeah, I like to tweak ), then set it to Complete if I've included all the relevant canon quotes.

Hope this helps, docmon! If you have any other questions, post them here and I will try to keep an eye out to answer them.

- Barbara

 

 

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