Forum: Writing Mary Sue: the Mother of Challenges

Discussing: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Gimli. Oh yeah.

Allow me to delude myself with this nice little thought that someone else out there but me wants to see Gimli romance with a character other than Legolas. A lovely OFC, for instance.

What sort of female dwarf do you think Gimnli would be interested in? Where would she be from? Would they be in lurve before the War of the Ring or fall in Aglarond?

Opinions, anyone?

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

This is a tough one.

Hm. Given how Gimli reacted to Galadriel, is there anyone else here willing to champion the theory that he's a not-so-closet romantic, in a very Dwarvish fashion? Hence, if he *were* in love during the War of the Rings, Legolas would know about it (and everyone else as well)?

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I think I would love a post Ring War romance with Gimli.

I think she need not be neccessarily a lady Dwarf. I think a neat romance with a hobbit lass that was just too tall or bigboned for the hobbit gentles to think of her as pretty might be cute. Sort of a Cinderella story. She might be a servant for the Sackville Baginses and Gimli met her by chance when visiting Sam while traveling with Legolas. Frodo is already gone over the sea. And the Sackvilles come a calling to verbally abuse Sam and his Rose and generally make nuisances of themselves...Obviously it is the latest generation since Lobelia wouldn't have been around to harrass anyone. But surely she had some sour tempered offspring to carry on her tradition. And they might have a servant lass, say her name is.....
Tanta Grubb from Sackville. (that is what my name is when you run it thru the Borrowdowns converter. I just ran hope hoover thru and it gave me Tanta! I think it's cute)

Anyway, I think she might be cute, just a bit on the burly side, even for a hobbit and she just isn't very well thought of by the Sackville Bagins'. And Gimli is there with Legolas visiting Sam and he sees her one day as the Sackvilles make a bad showing of themselves. Gimli is, of course, quite smitten.

I like!

E.W.

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Ang letting cat out of bag -

I have a story in development with Gimli and a Dwarven lady, who gets introduced to Legolas at some point. More than that I will not tell, but it has odd connections to the story of the Raven.

Dwarves keep secrets very well. But Legolas will finally understand why people would think Dwarven women have beards. It's a religious thing.

Anyway, of course Gimli is a romantic! Dwarves are rather sentimental where wives and children are concerned, from my POV.

Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I have a story in development with Gimli and a Dwarven lady, who gets introduced to Legolas at some point.

Bua ha ha! Yes!!

Not that I dislike Lina or anything (credit where credit is due, I think Miss Cam's Lina was the first OFC to fall for Gimli), but I want to see a believable Dwarf-woman. And I want to see Gimli being Dwarvishly in love with her.

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Tee-hee. I will love seeing that, Auntie Ang!

I'm with Dwim here, my problem isn't finding Gimlli romance, but GR with a dwarf-woman. They're constantly ignored (more than the usual ignoring dwarves get) but, the way I see it, if dwarf-ladies have beards, the dwarf-gentlemen will find that beautiful. And love them for it in that very dwarvish way, hopelessly romantic, but kept to themselves.

So that makes three of us writing Gim romance, right? Because, EW, you doomed yourself just like Mike over there at the Denethor thread. Perfect scenario and setting, now I want to see that dwarf/hobbit written!

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Actually, Cel and I did some speculation on Dwarf/non-Dwarf possibilites and figured that the only plausible combination would be Dwarf male - human female in a very, very strange set of circumstances.

Hobbits are really small compared to most every other being, particularly the women. When the tallest Hobbit male (about 4' 2") barely reaches a Dwarf male's shoulder, we're talking major proportion difficulties. And then we have bulk issues, too. A tall Hobbit woman would be 3' 7", and weigh perhaps 45 - 50 pounds. It is not an impossible combination, mind you, but it would not be likely.

I posited that a "tall" (5' 3-4") average human female who lived in a community (such as Dale) that had regular business with dwarves might develop a relationship with a Dwarf who had been known to her family for a generation or two, particularly if she had some great craft skill but had another problem that might render her unmarriageable among humans.

I also thought that a Dwarf might acept a female slave as part of a business trade from one of the southern or eastern human trade caravans, and then would be stuck with her. He would have accepted the trade because (being a Dwarf) he is reverential towards females (so few among Dwarves, and so prized) and might have considered it a matter of honor to remove her from slavery. However, a deal is a deal, and he woudl not wish to loose property by simply freeing her.

So, we batted around the idea of indentured servitude, with her working her way to freedom. Affection could grow. She might be reluctant to go back to living among humans because of previous slave status and fears of being re-enslaved. At some point, something might happen.

I can't really see Dwarves hiring human prositutes unless very bored and/or very drunk. Elves? Getaouddaheere.

So, that's Auntie Ang's thoughts on the matter.

The Gimli story would be short (No, really!) and would be set in Aglarond after the War. Dwarven mythology would be featured. But I might need to redo Lions first. Argh.....

Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Yeah, have to agree with Ang here. Not only to I find all cross species pairings a bit strange (with the possible exception of human with a VERY tolerant or curious elf) but hobbit - dwarf would just be TOO wierd to contemplate. Looking at the genesis of the dwarvish race, I would have to wonder if they even have the same kind of 'plumbing'? Nope. Of all the races, I would have to say dwarves would probably be the MOST likely to stick with their own for romance. Gimli may love Galadriel, but I would seriously doubt he feels that way in more than a devotee manner. For hot and heavy dwarf action, Gimli would need a dwarf maiden.

Looking forward to seeing your story, Ang.

Ariel

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Eeeewwww...!

Ariel thru down a gauntlet!

Alright, that's it! *snicker* Ilrhenir will have to wait for the last few paragraphs to be done! I am writin' me a Hobbit/Gimli Romance!!!!

See you all later..

E.W.

 

 

And the Wife conviently dead. Sigh.

The trouble I have with Gimli romances, also Legolas, is the "wife conviently absent" aspect. Grrr.

In canon, for the major players -- Faramir presumably outlives Eowyn, but he stays in Minas Tirith. OK

Eomer and Lothiriel -- I don't know. OK

Arwen withdraws herself to faded Lorien after Aragorn dies. Well, I've discussed that at obessive length umpteen times.

Rosie dies before Sam, so he can go west and join Frodo. Sigh.

Merry and Pippin are both widowers when Eomer recalls Merry to Rohan before his death. Isn't that special?

So these potential romances tend to squick me, because JRRT has already gotten 3 wives out of the way, which I already don't like. Shall we add more? Sigh

I suppose with a human lifespan, if either hooks up soon after the Ring War having the OhumanFCs die before Aragorn is less of a stretch that all three relevant hobbit wives living significantly shorter than their husbands (aren't they all born after their husbands? -- the social norms seems to be toward slightly younger wives).

I'm babbling. Someone hooks up Gimli with an OFC Dwarf, however, I'm probably going to groan.

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I just came into this discussion, but after reading this lengthy plot bunny by E.W...

I think I would love a post Ring War romance with Gimli.

I think she need not be neccessarily a lady Dwarf. I think a neat romance with a hobbit lass that was just too tall or bigboned for the hobbit gentles to think of her as pretty might be cute. Sort of a Cinderella story. She might be a servant for the Sackville Baginses and Gimli met her by Bagins'. And Gimli is there with Legolas visiting Sam and he sees her one day as the Sackvilles make a bad showing of themselves. Gimli is, of course, quite smitten...




I stopped reading there. The temptation is to write this thing out is too great... argh... must get nuzgul vaccine...


-Klose

 

 

Re: And the Wife conviently dead. Sigh.

Well, I think he is presenting a social reality - mortal wives would have been more likely to die sooner than their husbands. I mean, Rosie had 13 kids! That would wear me out, for darn sure.

Estella Bolger and Diamond of Long Cleeve both lived reasonable life spans for Hobbit women. Diamond would ahve been 87 - 89 when she passed away, and Estella would probably have been in her early 90's - very respectable ages. Rose Cotton was 98 when she died, after a long marriage (62 years). Romances for the men afterwards would be unlikely as they are also pretty far advanced.

In terms of Gimli, "wife conveniently absent" makes much more sense than for almost anyone else, as Dwarves appear (after the Ents) to have the most gender-divided social lives. Hmm, interesting thoguht - Dwarves are the children of Aulë and Ents the children of Yavanna, and they both have some problems getting the sexes to stay together in the same place.

Anyway, if Gimli is in a romance (and, yes, Auntie Ang had a brain flash on that one), it would be reasonable that he might spend many years away from his spouse without this being odd or objectionable by Dwarven standards. However, dallying with someone else whilst married would be a very bad faux pas. I don't think any Dwarf-mother would take such an insult .

Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Anglachel, are dwarves really _that_ much taller than hobbits?

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Average height Hobbit = 3' 6'
Average height Dwarf male = 5' 2"
Human male, non Dunedain - 5' 7-10"
Human male, Dunedain - over 6', up to 7'
Elven male - over 6', probably up to 7'

Yeah.

Go mark it on a stick or on a door jamb. That's a hell of a big difference in size - almost two feet. We're only talking height here, too. When you start factoring in bulk, then they are even more different.

A tall Hobbit male might be an edge over 4'. For example, in my Hobbit stories, I am assuming that Bilbo and Frodo are about 3' 11" tall, and that their cousins Sara and Mac are 4' 1-2", putting the tops of their heads about on level with the top of Dalin's shoulder. Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took was only 4' 5", and was the tallest Hobbit in memory until Merry & Pippin, who were probably 4' 10", 4' 11" after the Ents. I think both of them would have been @ 4' before the Ent draughts. Sam, in contrast, with no Fallohide lineage, would have been 3' 6-8"

A small Hobbit female might be only 3' at full maturity (I imagine my OC Dilly, Mac's wife, to be 3' 2-3" - tiny compared to her tall husband), while most women would be 3' 4-6". Average males would be 3' 6-9". A woman from a strong Fallohide family, such as Gilda or Esmie, would probably be about as tall as Harfoot/Stoor males - 3' 6-9", with an occasional very tall woman of 3' 10-11".

JRRT also posited that the overall height of the Hobbit population was moving downwards, which indicates to me that the earliest "Hobbits" were probably much closer to human and Dwarf heights, in the upper 4' lower 5' range.

I'm really crunched for programming right now (rushing to finish major site revisions before end of year and beginning of story rush), but I do have a document in the works to show relative sizes between the peoples.

Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Tolkien refered to the hobbits as being the size of a "child of nine summers" The average 9 year old child is between 3 foot 10 inches(on the short end) to 4foot 7inches (on the tallish end , though my 8 year old daughter is at least that tall). So an irregularly tall hobbit lass could easily be 4 foot 6 to even 4 foot 10 inches, making her eligible fore any Women's Hobbit basket ball leagues. It would also make her a fair match and eligible for any average dwarf of 5' 2" AND it would make her eligible for the story I just suggested ....*snicker*

I LOVE tall women, no reason very tall Hobbit lasses can't find love too.

E.W.

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

All my textbooks are at home in Canada but I would venture to say that the typical 9 year old child of today is probably a good 5-10cm (2-4") taller than the 9 yr old children of 50-70 years ago when Tolkien was writing the Hobbit and LotR.

As for size difference being an impediment to marriage, I don't see it. After all, most basketball and volleyball players end up hooking up with considerably shorter mates.

katakanadian
(who took several courses in growth and development at uni)

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

About size again:

I keep thinking of the wide range in the human race alone. For example the Bushmen in Africa: They are very small, but since they don't live today as isolated as they used to do, there is much interbreeding with other, that means: much bigger men and women, up to the point of likely possible extinction as a racial and cultural group in the near future.
So I think height differences can be overcome.
In Swabia, where I come from, there is a folk saying regarding love between a big man and small woman: " a mouse never suffocates under a haystack."
(Sounds much more charming in the swabian dialect.)


About Gimli romances in general:

Write them! I will read them!
Of course Gimli is a romantic character. He has an eye for beauty and is very able to get enthusiastic.

Dagmar, sometimes a rabid Gimli fangirl

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

So I think height differences can be overcome.

Sure, but it's not just absolute differences, it's also proportion. I won't repeat all Ang's stats, but JRRT described Hobbit height as "variable, between 2 and 4 feet of our measurement." (I think that's the exact phrase, but don't have book to check.) So... whatever he meant by "child of nine summers," it would still be 4 feet max.

Taking the assumption that an average female Hobbit would be, say, 3' 5" (which may be on the high side!), and that an average male Dwarf would be perhaps 5' 2" (as per Ang's workings-out), then we have not only a 21" height difference, we also have a situation where the woman is only 2/3 the height of the man.

A 21" difference between a 5' 1" woman and a 6' 10" man (short woman, tall basketball-player type) means the woman is nearly 3/4 the height of the man - not as big a stretch. And virtually all modern pairings are a lot closer than that, often only 6-8" difference at most (I am only about 2" shorter than my SO, fwiw).

So it would undoubtedly be physically possible for a Dwarf man and a Hobbit woman to get together, but size differences would make it unlikely, IMO. And the cultural and social problems would be an even bigger difficulty to overcome.

Cel

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I know one human couple where the height difference must be around 15 or 16 inches (she is a very petite Thai, he is tall Brit), and they seemed to get along ok. She only comes up to his mid-chest. They do look odd together, till you get used to seeing them, and it's easy to think that she's much younger than him.

Tavia

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I always rather wonder about the psychology within such unevenly matched couples, you know? Is there more of a parent-child relationship than an equals relationship, simply because of the size difference? I'd not assume there was, but I do wonder. I've seen couples with such a disparity, and it does look odd.

Thinking about the people I dated before I got married, about the only thing they had in common in terms of physical appearance is size - none were a great deal taller than I, perhaps 4-5 inches at most. I didn't consciously notice it at the time, but thinking it over, I suspect that for me, a great difference in size would alter the balance in the relationship and make it inequitable, simply because of the potential (physical) power of the one. Of course, I'm sure there are many people out there for whom that would be a positive rather than a negative...

Cel

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I'm not so much concerned about height (Hey, I'm 5'3" and dated someone 6'5" once) as much as I am about body mass differences and (even more) about cultural differences.

A Dwarf is not only going to tower over a Hobbit female, he is going to be massive next to her. OTOH, a Hobbit baby, no matter how small, is a heck of a lot larger than any (ahem) male appendage. So, I think that it would be a problematic situation, but not physically impossible for sexual relations to occur, and even be pleasureable for both partners.

However, I'm still unconvinced that any relationship could work out. I am not someone who thinks "love conquers all". I could see a human/Hobbit relationship more easily than Hobbit /Dwarf.

Besides which, what is wrong with putting a dwarf male together with a dwarf female? I'm getting a bit bemused at the mental gymnastics over putting two different species together rather than simply trying to imagine what a Dwarf woman is like, and putting someone like Gimli into a relationship with said Dwarf female. Besides, I think you are going to find Dwarven m/m relations long before you would find Dwarf/ any other species you care to name relations.

Why the desire to pair a Dwarf with something pretty, rather than with another Dwarf?

Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Why do you think a dwarf woman is not pretty ?

I agree that dwarves will keep to each other. Male dwarves will find women without beards unattractive.

Dwarf women are a very underwritten species. So far, I know some stories by Deborah here on HASA, who interprets Gimli as a female dwarf, and Honesty's new story "Warg Hunt" on FFnet has a very nice portrayal of Narvi's mother. That's all I can think of. I would like to see more dwarven women.
Unlike other women in Middle-earth, they have the advantage that it is very easy to send them off on adventures with a big axe in hand, if you wish to.

I think Terry Pratchet borrowed the whole concept of dwarf biology and culture from Tolkien and used it to the best in his novels.

Dagmar



 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

This is not part of the Mary Sue challenge, but in the never-ending 4th Age fic I'm working on, there's a Gimli/OC relationship. Of sorts. In a certain sense. Yes, the OC is a Dwarf (part of the colony of Dwarves that came to Aglarond in the 4th Age). There's also the matter of the Legolas/Gimli dynamic, which I hope I manage to handle credibly.

Unlike other women in Middle-earth, they have the advantage that it is very easy to send them off on adventures with a big axe in hand, if you wish to.

I think Terry Pratchet borrowed the whole concept of dwarf biology and culture from Tolkien and used it to the best in his novels.
~ Dagmar

Yes, he did, and I have borrowed his interpretation in turn - the "relationship" between Gimli and Tir (the OC) is quite solemn and rather more focused on enigneering than anything else. This is Dwarves we are talking about, after all.

Now let's hope I don't fall flat on my face.

-----AM

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Sorry, didn't see this post when you made it.

My reference to "pretty" is our perspective, not the Dwarves perspective. A Dwarven woman is going to very, very closely resemble a Dwarven man, and they are certainly not in accord with stadards of "fairness" -either our own, or Tolkien's. However, they would find each other quite attractive.

I think I am the only person here who takes Gimli's comment about Dwarf women having beards as a joke, tweaking the gullibility and ignorance of his friends in a gentle way. I explain the beard as a type of "veil" that Dwarven women use in the presence of outsiders, to hide the fact that they are female, but with a cultural importance that preceeds any interaction with non-Dwarves. Overall, Dwarves are secretive about their society, and are going to go to great lengths to hide it from non-Dwarves. I suspect that the different divisions of Dwarves (petty Dwarves, Broadbeams, Longbeards, Firebeards, etc.) are going to be secretive between each other as well. A Dwarf would be amused at misleading an outsider as to Dwarven habits and customs. Their sense of humor is sly.

As for women dwarves in stories, my short work, "Treasures" has Bilbo meeting both a Dwarf woman and a Dwarf child. It is available on HASA.

I also have a longer story, "Lions of Khazad-Dum," which is an AU of the flight of the Hollin elves from Sauron during the first Ring War in the 2nd Age. One of the main characters is the consort of Durin, a Dwarf woman known only as The Raven, and dwarven women in general appear in the story.

In a subsequent story, Legolas asks Gimli about this quasi-mythical character, and Gimli (grudgingly) talks a tiny bit about Dwarven belief concerning the divine consort of Durin, her sacred origins, and her role in Dwarven society. Email me about a URL to either of these.

I have an OC male Dwarf, Dalin, in my beta story "On Merry Yule," available here on HASA. Chapter 10 is mostly given over to him explaining to the Hobbits the conflict between Dwarves and Elves, and is very much the Dwarves take on the whole thing. Made up almost whole cloth, but with attention to the tone of writing about Dwarves found in the Silmarillion, and playing off of notes about Dwarves in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn." I also use the essay "Of Dwarves and Men", HoMe XII for this chapter. There are oblique references to Dwarven women. The chapter is mostly meant to explore Dwarven mind-set, and to illustrate the parochialism of Hobbits.

Finally, somewhere in the forums, I posted the opening to a Dwarf story from the perspective of Dis, Thorin Oakenshield's sister, as she leads a trade delegation to Lake Town from the Iron Hills while Smaug is still alive.

Dwarf women would not be sent on adventures, axe in hand, because they are so precious and so few (like Dwarven children), but they would certainly be perfectly trained in how to use one. Not someone an orc would want to meet in a dark passageway, no. They would also be well trained in crafts and metal work, as well as (keeping with the JRRT universe of what females are particularly graced in doing) in more "domestic" talents with weaving, sewing, cooking, etc.

I take much of this from his notes on Elves, and the way in which certain things (healing, making Lembas, Arwen weaving the banner for Aragorn, too many things about Luthien to itemize) are done by women by virtue of their, well, virtue - there is a sacred component to certain types of care for others and of acting upon and in the world. Thus, Dwarven women have a sacred task of maintaining hearth and home that has very little to do with our modern notions of stay-at-home moms. The making of things and the making of life (invention and natality) are more closely allied in Dwarven thought than they are in Elven or Human, as their myth of origin does not begin with their awakening, but with their crafting by Aulë.

Oh, dear, this is turning into an essay on the sacred and Dwarven home life. Sorry!

In short, no, I can't imagine Gimli being romatically involved with anyone except another Dwarf, and I just don't buy Dwarven women having beards. So, gotta go write some stories to explain why. ;-)

Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

My 2 cents worth, though they're probably worth a lot less:

Gimli is clearly an incurable romantic. A late 19th-century style romantic. If Gimli had a favorite composer, it would be Mahler. My fiance (with whom I am currently reading LOTR out loud) thinks that Gimli is very Prussian. I think it would be lovely to see a Gimli romance, preferrably with a dwarf woman.

The only female dwarf I ever remember reading about was a character in the Dragonlance universe, who had a nice little romance with whatever the dwarf character's name is in that series (sorry, it was a really long time ago). It was one of the sidebar novels that dealt exclusively with the dwarf character and his non-quest activities. I thought it was a cute story, and when I think of dwarf women in the Tolkien universe, I tend to imagine them in the same sort of way, since Dragonlance is very Tolkien-derivative.

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I just don't buy Dwarven women having beards ~ Ang

Well, I refer you to the following, quotes from the Q&A from The Green Books at TORN (becaue it's quite handy and I'm at work and thus don't have the books with me ^_^):

"The passage in Return of the King says that "[Dwarf-women] are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other people cannot tell them apart." … In Peoples of Middle Earth there is draft material from that Appendix, and the draft version of this passage says that "There is no difference in substance in the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which ‘would of course be impossible'), and that they have beards." Why JRRT chose to omit this information cannot be guessed.

In the post-LotR Quenta Silmarillion is a section containing "the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim" (pp. 203+ of The War of the Jewels, US Edition at least). In paragraph 5, we learn that "no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf–unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls."

So there you have it. I myself love the idea of the bearded female Dwarf, and that's what I use in my own stories, mostly because of underlying psychological and mythological considerations which I'm not going to go into here, and partly because Pratchett put this to such good use that it's almost impossible for me to go any other way.

certain things [snip!] are done by women by virtue of their, well, virtue ~ Ang

Well, as someone who's had much nastier experiences with women and girls than with men and boys, I am not very receptive to recycled Victorian pieties about womanhood ^_^ Judging by Eowyn's confrontation with the inner beast, which I will try to take to its logical conclusions in the aforementioned 4th Age fic I'm writing, at least as it came to humans, Tolkien was probably inclined to agree. Elves and the Golden Age may be another kettle of fish altogether (though, for example, Galadriel (that says it all)), but I don't write about Elves nor the glorious Homeric past. Writing about the advent of the Human Age is, I find, much more interesting...

Schnoogles,

-----AM

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Well, the passage about beards that appears in War of the Jewels is dated 1951, and the redlining of the comment about Gimli saying Dwarf women have beards is no earlier than that, and probably later (1953-54) when JRRT was performing his final edits on the Appendices for LOTR.

I look at this information and I think that the beards on Dwarven women is the one element in the 1951 writings that are out of keeping with the rest of his comments on Dwarves, and appears to be the one thing he himself was quite uncertain on. It does open up these characters to lampooning, or turning them into side-show freaks. At best, I think JRRT himself is of two minds on this matter (what Pratchett says is, of course, irrelevant), and, if the redlining is definitely older than the the first essay, clearly he changed his mind on the question, leaving it more ambiguous - outsiders cannot tell male from female.

Why? Is this because of facial hair or disguise? There must be some kind of facial covering that resembles a beard, because all Dwarf males have them, so how can they be accounted for? Would Aulë truly have made females with beards, when no other (known) female creations had them? Why/why not? How many ways can we account for them? Wouldn't Dwarves have been able to fashion this kind of "wig"? Would it amuse a Dwarf to know a non-Dwarf was being fooled?

Anyone may, of course, write about dwarf women with beards, especially if they wish to copy Pratchett. My point is that more interesting stories may arise from presuming that Dwarf females are like other females in this regard. Then the similarity between male and female in the eyes of outsiders requires artifice and craft on the part of Dwarves. I just find that a more interesting situation than "Hey, look, a bearded lady!"

As per "Victorian pieties" - I used the term "virtue" in the classical sense of a particular excellence, talent or quality. I don't mean females with intact hymens.

Ang

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Nor do I mean to go the "circus freaks" route. I said above that my female Dwarves are bearded because of underlying psychological considerations - given the themes I explore in the fic, it is very important that female Dwarves are stereotypically male, at least as far as other species are concerned. The Dwarves themselves would have no problem in distinguishing males from females, much as various animals have no difficulties in this regard, indistinguishable as they may look to us humans.

As per "Victorian pieties" - I used the term "virtue" in the classical sense of a particular excellence, talent or quality. I don't mean females with intact hymens. ~ Ang

Lol! I was referring to the classical sense of "virtue" myself, e.g, the Victorian notion that women are pure angels of light, an idea which immediately makes me reach for my sick bag, so insufferable it is.

Schnoogles,

-----AM

 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

Actually, I must disagree, the Victorian notion and the classical could not be farther apart. The classical (having the same modern ambiguity as the parallel word "quality") means merely "a property," and is as a medieval or Roman scientist might say "Salt hath the vertue of sharpenesse," meaning that salt burns and dries things out. This can be a bad thing, as all shipwrecked mariners and aviators well know, or a good thing: famine would have been far more prevalent throughout history without it. Too much salt sickens and kills, --and not enough salt sickens and kills, too. It's just a state of being, without moral implication.

By the same token, such properties as an inclination to organize, to heal, to make peace, towards precision, all are in themselves morally neutral, but may be used for good -- or for bad -- depending on the personality and will of the individual posessing the qualities/virtues/traits. The urge to nurture can lead to overprotectiveness; the urge to peace can lead to papering over of irreconcileable differences; the urge to precision can lead to obsessively controlling nitpicking; the urge to organize can lead to a loss of proper goals. These "good" qualities are at one and the same time occupational hazards as well as prerequisites for teachers, medical practitioners, and parents (and Powers, too.)


 

 

Re: Gimli. Oh yeah.

I meant "classical" with a small "c," i.e., a word that has come to signify "pre-contemporary," not "Classical" with a capital "C," which I use to mean "from the Classical civilisations (i.e, Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome)." So a Victorian moral notion would be "classical" with a small "c" (although I myself dislike using the word "classical" to signify "pre-contemporary," so imbued I am with its Hellenistic sense). I am aware that this is confusing, so I just wanted to clarify matters.

Schnoogles,

-----AM

 

 

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