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Discussing: A query about Theodred's entry

A query about Theodred's entry

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could tell me how the birthdates (2079/2080) were worked out? I think the contributors were Lyllyn, Nessime and Dim Genisis - but naturally I don't know who contributed what. They're just slightly different from the ones I get, working backwards from the only bit of info I've found on his age, but I may be missing some other information. Thanks, Avon

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how the birthdates (2079/2080) were worked out? I think the contributors were Lyllyn, Nessime and Dim Genisis - but naturally I don't know who contributed what. They're just slightly different from the ones I get, working backwards from the only bit of info I've found on his age, but I may be missing some other information. I don't think I entered it; I might have chose 2078/2079. From Appendix A we know that Eomund died in 3002, and that "Not long after Théodwyn took sick and died to the great grief of the king. Her children he took into his house, calling them son and daughter." At that time (of taking his neice and nephew into his house) Théodred was 24. This could make his birthday as early as 2978, or later depending on what "Not long after" means. In Unfinished Tales we find out that Théodred is 13 years older than Éomer, who was born in 2991. That would make Théodred's birthday 2078. The person who might know more if no one else here does, is Nessime. Lyllyn

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Thanks, Lyllyn. Using the not long after reference I had it as either 78 or 79 - and then got totally confused about whether I'd invented the thirteen year age gap in my story or sourced from somewhere. Avon

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

I don't think I entered it; I might have chose 2078/2079. I suspect you mean 2978/2979? - Barbara Edit: And is he ever called Prince of Rohan anywhere?

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Yep, 2978/79 - don't know whether to blame the LD or the abysmal typing for that one. I don't believe I've come across Prince of Rohan anywhere. Avon

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Hi, Avon! AFAIR my only contribution to Théodred's bio was the quote from UT: The Battles of the Fords of Isen. But I can confirm that the dates given for his birth do not jive with what Tolkien wrote of him. In the opening passage of that account Tolkien wrote:
...Éomer also was not an ambitious man, and his love and respect for Théodred (thirteen years older than he) was only second to his love of his foster-father [i.e. Théoden].
In the Tale of Years in Appendix B of LotR Éomer's birth year is given as III 2991; go back thirteen years and you get III 2978 - which also happens to be the birth year given in the Tale of Years for Boromir (this is but one of the many pieces of information that fuels my obsession with the Éomer - Faramir and Théodred - Boromir correlations). If you go by the passage re: The Kings of Rohan in Appendix A of LotR where it states re: Éomund:
...he was slain in 3002;... Not long after Théodwyn took sick and died... Her children he took into his house, calling them son and daughter. He had only one child of his own, Théodred his son, then twenty-four years old...
you get the same result; twenty-four years back from III 3002 is III2978. I wouldn't base his birth year on that entry alone as the phrase not long after isn't a clear indicator of exactly how long it was before Théodwyn died and Théoden took Éomer and Éowyn into his house. (Was it days, weeks , or months?) But taken together with the entry in UT I would say it is fairly certain that Théodred's birth year was III 2978. Lyllyn, IMO the birth year in that bio should be changed. Shall I tend to that? I'm also not sure about the "titles" ascribed to him in the bio - someone else mentioned the Prince of Rohan title, which I don't recall ever seeing in canon (ergo, it should not be used in his bio) - Commander of the West-mark doesn't ring true either, but I'd have to check. He is referred to as the king's heir, though that's used as a descriptive term, not a proper title IIRC - must check source material. Not that I think it improper to refer to him as a prince of the realm. Addenda: I took a break between writing the above and this to double-check sources. In the UT account the word Heir is capitalized:
Gríma therefore tried to play them one against the other in the mind of Théoden, representing Éomer as ever eager to increase his own authority and to act without consulting the King or his Heir.
Ergo I think that King's Heir would be a proper title in Théodred's bio; what do you think? And a thorough check of both UT and LotR does not return any other "title" for Théodred besides Heir and Second Marshal. If we are to be consistent, only those titles that are actually used in Tolkien's own writings should be included in that portion of the bio. The fact that Théodred commanded the muster of the West-mark should properly be included in the Description portion of the bio. Far more detail than I'd intended to get into. ~Nessime

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Lyllyn, IMO the birth year in that bio should be changed. Shall I tend to that? I'm also not sure about the "titles" ascribed to him in the bio - someone else mentioned the Prince of Rohan title, which I don't recall ever seeing in canon (ergo, it should not be used in his bio) - Commander of the West-mark doesn't ring true either, but I'd have to check. He is referred to as the king's heir, though that's used as a descriptive term, not a proper title IIRC - must check source material. Not that I think it improper to refer to him as a prince of the realm Yes, thanks, Nessime! I know Dimmie was working from Portugese language books, (which is why I was entering the quotes), so "not long after" may have had a different connotation after being translated from English to Portugese and then back again, ditto for "Prince of Rohan." Please do change it, and I agree also with omitting the Prince of Rohan title. Thanks again, and thanks, Avon, for alerting us to this. We want to root out any inaccuracies! Lyllyn

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

I know Dimmie was working from Portugese language books, (which is why I was entering the quotes), so "not long after" may have had a different connotation after being translated from English to Portugese and then back again, ditto for "Prince of Rohan."
Yes, and I've heard some of the horror stories about certain of the translations to other languages, so I would not presume to make a judgement on that score.
...thanks, Avon, for alerting us to this. We want to root out any inaccuracies!
Seconded! I'm rather ashamed that I didn't latch onto the birth date myself - or the titles. I'll take care of that entry before the end of the day - then you can all double-check me. ~Nessime

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Nessime, I'm working with the UT quote that's in the entry, and also the Marshal of the Mark quote. If you'd like, I'll add them to the entry (with links). - Barbara Edit: Thanks for pointing out that UT quote about the 13-year age difference! I'm now comfortable with changing my Genealogies from "about 2978" to "2978" for both Théodred's birth date and Elfhild's death date.

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Actually, I have several new quotes that are already linked. Will revise the entry and you can check my work (I'll keep the original, in case you don't like the new format.) - Barbara Edit: Done. And I see that Nessime had already fixed the dates and titles... good!

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

In the Tale of Years in Appendix B of LotR Éomer's birth year is given as III 2991; go back thirteen years and you get III 2978 - which also happens to be the birth year given in the Tale of Years for Boromir (this is but one of the many pieces of information that fuels my obsession with the Éomer - Faramir and Théodred - Boromir correlations). Yep, that was what started my Boromir-Theodred and Faramir-Eomer fascination. Thank you everyone for confirming that I hadn't started inventing facts. (This sort of confusion is what happens when you leave ten months between chapters and don't keep adequate notes. ;-)) Avon

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Thank you everyone for confirming that I hadn't started inventing facts. (This sort of confusion is what happens when you leave ten months between chapters and don't keep adequate notes. ;-)) LOL! And thank you for letting us know that there was a problem, so we could fix it! - Barbara

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Actually, I have several new quotes...
Yes, those are the very ones I had in mind, but had - temporarily - opted for a brief description until I could extract them for posting (it's been an in-and-out, on-and-off kind of day for me ) Glad to see you had the quotes ready at hand - complete with links. ~Nessime *very happy to see one of my favorite men's bio being fleshed out

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Yep, that was what started my Boromir-Theodred and Faramir-Eomer fascination.
And they died within a day of one another. And both have burials (of a sort) in the midst of a river. We don't need to get into how their younger brothers felt about them (and Théodred would have considered Éomer to be his brother).
(This sort of confusion is what happens when you leave ten months between chapters and don't keep adequate notes. ;-))
SNORK! I think I keep too many - so I have to re-read all my notes, and invented genealogies and timelines to be sure I'm not straying from the established facts - Tolkien's and my own. ~Nessime

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

And both have burials (of a sort) in the midst of a river. Whoa! I never thought of that! (And I just added the Mound of the Riders and the Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli launch the funeral boat of Boromir entries, too... so I have no excuse not to notice!) - Barbara

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

Actually, I have several new quotes... Yes, those are the very ones I had in mind, I've been working on the Invasion of the Westfold by Saruman, so they were at my electronic fingertips, so to speak... - Barbara

 

 

Re: A query about Theodred's entry

We don't need to get into how their younger brothers felt about them No, indeed - 'cause this half of the 'we' has about 20, 00 more words to write on that subject she suspects. *Goes off to hide under the sofa* (This sort of confusion is what happens when you leave ten months between chapters and don't keep adequate notes. ;-)) SNORK! I think I keep too many - so I have to re-read all my notes, and invented genealogies and timelines to be sure I'm not straying from the established facts - Tolkien's and my own. Yes, well, this is why I'm never gunna be a research elf. My notes for That Which We Are (at least the ones I can find consist of maybe 6 little notepad pages - in different notebooks at that - of cryptic scribblings such as Morwen --- Lossarnach ----father ---- Belfalas --- brothers? sisters? and such like. The only stories I have ever made detailed notes for were then not written - why would write them when I'd already done all the thinking? ;-) Avon

 

 

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