Henneth Annûn Story Archive

(This thread is the continuation of this one...)

 

Hi,

This is the current list of volunteers to do the Bio entries for the Races of Men.

Key: 'DONE' is aleady in the database, 'PH' is in the db, but needs expansion (it's a PlaceHolder), 'Liz' is Liz/Tanaqui, 'Barb' is me (Elena Tiriel), 'Loqi' is Loquacious. DONE? means that one of us will check the existing entry for consistency and completeness.

Barb, Liz, Loqi: --- Dúnedain & Related Races ---
PH/Barb: Edain
PH/Barb: - House of Bëor/Bëorians
PH/Barb: - Haladin/Folk of Haleth/Halethrim
PH/Barb: - House of Hador of Dor-lómin/Hadorians
PH/Barb: Númenóreans (inc. Black Númenóreans)
DONE?: Dúnedain
PH/Loqi: - Dúnedain of the North
DONE: - Gondorians

Barb: --- Rohirrim & Related Races ---
DONE?: Rohirrim
DONE: Northmen of Rhovanion
DONE: Éothéod
DONE?: Beornings
Barb: Woodmen?
DONE?: Bardings
Barb: Men of Laketown?

Liz: --- Dunlendings & Related Races ---
PH/Liz: Dunlendings
Hill-men?
Breelanders
Men of the White Mtns (inc. Lebennin, Ethir Anduin?)
Dead of Dunharrow?

--- Haradrim & Related Races ---
DONE?: Haradrim/Southrons/Swertings
DONE?: Corsairs of Umbar

Barb: --- Easterlings & Related Races ---
DONE: Easterlings/Wainriders/Balchoth

Liz, Barb: --- Other Races ---
DONE: Drúedain/Púkel-men/Woses
DONE: Lossoth/Snowmen of Forochel/Forodwaith
DONE: Variags of Khand

 

Hi Barbara Answering the posts you made in the first thread House of Hador/House of Bëor entries (Edit: and I'll officially re-volunteer for (expanding) the Three Houses of the Edain.) Yay! Thanks for the taking them on. I certainly didn't feel like I'd "adopted" them yet, and I suspect they fit better with the work you've been doing on the Northmen than the MotWM entries I'm going to do. (BTW House of Hador only got some of that passage - which I saw you used for the other entries - because there was no UT entry and the Silm index entry was so very pathetic on its own.) (You are referring, of course, to my Entish naming conventions?) *snork* Yes, "Entish naming conventions" is a very tactful way to describe it. I just added 8 events concerning the Three Hunters' visit to Edoras to my to-do list... how does this happen? Why couldn't we have chosen Harry Potter, say, instead of Tolkien to analyze? Because then we'd be scouring the books for details of Hippogriff habits, elaborating the rules of Quidditch and wrestling with the complexities of the Black family tree... Face it, Barbara, we'd be research geeks whatever fandom we were in. Tolkien just allows us to give full rein to our obsessive tendencies. Since you didn't throttle me for my first picky suggestion I never throttle people for making thoughtful and intelligent suggestions, although my imaginary cat may get kicked around the room a few times, depending on the level of work involved. People making thoughtless and idiotic suggestions, on the other hand, need to dodge the flamethrower. "Drúadan Forest" is used often [...] I'd like to suggest using the more commonly-used version A very intelligent suggestion! It's now Aragorn Grants Drúadan Forest to the Drúedain if you want to update the links database. I've also changed the wording for the links in the places it appeared in each of the two bios. Thanks for the help. Will be working on sideline links some time today and look forward to any more suggestions you have for tweaks to the new entries. Edit I've now added sideline links for all the entries except House of Hador/House of Bëor, since you're going to be doing lots more work on those! Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Liz! Well, you got me so excited about the cool Drúedain that I added an entry for Watch-stones of the Drúedain (edit: from quotes that I stole from your entry... woohoo!); it's nice knowing what the Púkel-men of Dunharrow really are! Your Drúedain entry is amazing! I hadn't realized there was so much information -- obviously never read the whole chapter in UT. I saw some typos, related to the quality of the electronic copy, but won't be able to fix them for a day or two... haven't been sleeping well and I'm not feeling alert enough to read anything closely... will let you know if I change anything in the entry. Oh, and you might want to add Púkel-men to the Other Names field -- as I understand it, it was an alias for the Drúedain people for everyone except the Rohirrim, who only applied it to the watch-stones at Dunharrow. - Barbara [Edit:] P.S. I've now added sideline links to the three houses of the Edain entries... If you think of any I've missed, let me know... feeling fuzzy today...

 

Well, you got me so excited about the cool Drúedain that I added an entry for Watch-stones of the Drúedain Very nice! Your Drúedain entry is amazing! I hadn't realized there was so much information -- obviously never read the whole chapter in UT. Thanks. Definitely scary bio status, I think. I'd forgotten a lot of it as well! I was particularly excited to discover that the lineage is properly tracked through the Second Age. Of course, now I have a story nuzgul about the Drúedain trying to persuade Aldarion not to go sailing back to M-e, or begging passage on a ship.... Hmm, that might fit my Sophisticated Cultures and Primitive Peoples challenge, as well as the Lossoth idea I had that sparked the challenge. Neither of which are showing any sign of being written, of course.... I saw some typos, related to the quality of the electronic copy I just realised, looking at the Púkel-men issue you raised below, that there were a whole bunch of diacritical marks missing from one of the HoMe quotes, so I've added that in. I'll go back and read it through again in a few days time as well. I definitely have a tendency to read what I expect to see, not what's actually there when I'm trying to edit an entry together. Oh, and you might want to add Púkel-men to the Other Names field -- as I understand it, it was an alias for the Drúedain people for everyone except the Rohirrim, who only applied it to the watch-stones at Dunharrow. I was wondering about that myself. Tolkien very nearly always seems to put quote marks around the term Púkel-men when he calls them that. It looks like it's meant to be a Rohirric term, since it's based on Anglo-Saxon, and I get the impression it's rather uncouth when applied to the people rather than the watchstones, if that makes any kind of sense. Would it be "editorialising" too far to put a note to that effect in the "Other Names" field? [Edit:] P.S. I've now added sideline links to the three houses of the Edain entries... If you think of any I've missed, let me know... feeling fuzzy today... In all three cases, do we want to add links to entries for specific members of that house for whom we have bios (eg Húrin and Túrin for the House of Hador) and perhaps events relating to those people? I will almost certainly be going on a "places in Beleriand" kick at some point, if Lyllyn doesn't beat me to it, so I'll probably look at tying up the places links more firmly then. And, darnit, wondering if the Haladin of Brethil entry should be linked to entries relating to Turin fooling around there now has me beating back a very sharp-fanged nuzgul wearing a Narn i Hîn Húrin collar and trailing a clutch of baby nuzguls cheeping things like "Nienor" and "Brandir" at me. Arghhhh! Cheers, Liz

 

Definitely scary bio status, I think. Indeed! Of course, now I have a story nuzgul about the Drúedain trying to persuade Aldarion not to go sailing back to M-e, or begging passage on a ship.... Hmm, that might fit my Sophisticated Cultures and Primitive Peoples challenge, as well as the Lossoth idea I had that sparked the challenge. Neither of which are showing any sign of being written, of course.... LOL! I, too, started a challenge (really quite by accident -- I just meant it as a suggestion for the quarterly quickies and it grew escaped...) and haven't even come up with a story idea yet. Don't think anyone else has written anything either... I just realised, looking at the Púkel-men issue you raised below, that there were a whole bunch of diacritical marks missing from one of the HoMe quotes, so I've added that in. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. Is it better to leave the quotes exactly as published (even though Tolkien later added accents to the names), or to replace them and use [], or to replace them without marking them as changed? So far, I've mostly been leaving them alone (except for occasional replacements in [] where it might be confusing) and *hoping* that users will realize that the LoTR spellings trump the HoME (or Hobbit) ones. But maybe that's expecting too much? This might be something that we all should discuss and agree on... Tolkien very nearly always seems to put quote marks around the term Púkel-men when he calls them that. It looks like it's meant to be a Rohirric term, since it's based on Anglo-Saxon, and I get the impression it's rather uncouth when applied to the people rather than the watchstones, if that makes any kind of sense. Would it be "editorialising" too far to put a note to that effect in the "Other Names" field? Okay, you've gone over the top of my geek-o-meter there! I hadn't really noticed the quote marks... But I was thinking of the Other Names box as documenting "names that the (modern-day) reader might encounter that refer to the Drúedain", whereas you're seeing it as "names that other Tolkien characters/peoples use to refer to the Drúedain"... That's a subtle distinction that I hadn't made before (because they are usually the same!) Now that I've noticed the quotes, I still don't give them the same undertone as you do, especially since they aren't always there: 'The Drûgs or Púkel-men are not however to be confused with or thought of as a mere variant on the hobbit theme.' So, clearly the Omniscient Narrator calls them that. So, I would lean against the note: but if you disagree, go ahead and do it. As long as it's clearly marked as editorial, I have no objection whatsoever to including an opinion. In all three cases, do we want to add links to entries for specific members of that house for whom we have bios (eg Húrin and Túrin for the House of Hador) and perhaps events relating to those people? A very good question, and the authoritative answer is: um, well, maybe... I thought about it and decided not to, because it would be impossible for some races (e.g. Dúnedain). But, on the other hand, there aren't that many people and events related to the Edain, so maybe it's okay to be inconsistent between the races... But, there is the problem that as new Edain bios or 1st Age events get added, they won't be linked by anyone, so we might be creating an expectation -- that all Edainish stuff will be linked -- that we cannot fulfill. But, on the other hand, that is true of all our linking -- as the library grows, already-finished entries won't necessarily be revised just to add the relevant new links (either in-text or sideline). You decide (and anyone else who weighs in on this -- Lyllyn?). I'll do whatever you choose. (I do have the nice Family Trees, so I can find and link the Bios rather easily; the Events will take more thought [translation: not while I'm sleep-deprived ].) Another thought: I linked the Awakening of Men event to each of the three houses, but now I'm reconsidering: just because the Edain are the first men to come to the attention of the Elven historians when they (finally) reached Beleriand, doesn't mean that they were the first men. What do you think? I will almost certainly be going on a "places in Beleriand" kick at some point, if Lyllyn doesn't beat me to it Can I interest either of you in the "Roads in Western Beleriand" tidbits I have? Pre-linked? Cheap? - Barbara

 

Because then we'd be scouring the books for details of Hippogriff habits, elaborating the rules of Quidditch and wrestling with the complexities of the Black family tree... Face it, Barbara, we'd be research geeks whatever fandom we were in. Tolkien just allows us to give full rein to our obsessive tendencies. You may add 'trying to put together a Voldemort's first rise to power timeline' to that list, Liz. I know I've disappeared for a while, and will probably disappear again soon (exam time). Just thought I should pop up and say that I am in awe at the speed those couple of snowballs are rolling and that your geekiness never cease to amaze me. PLEASE HELP! We still need volunteers for: * Dúnedain of the North (inc. Rangers) Oh, what the heck, I'll take it. Don't expect much work done anytime soon though (my track record is horrible -_-). And Barbara, I know this is the wrong thread, but your proposed title formats look pretty good. ~Loqi

 

Hi Loqi! You may add 'trying to put together a Voldemort's first rise to power timeline' to that list, Liz. *snicker* I know I've disappeared for a while, and will probably disappear again soon (exam time). Just thought I should pop up and say that I am in awe at the speed those couple of snowballs are rolling and that your geekiness never cease to amaze me. *grin* Welcome back to the Unreal world! * Dúnedain of the North (inc. Rangers) Oh, what the heck, I'll take it. Don't expect much work done anytime soon though Excellent! The Dúnedain of the North are all yours! Thank you! (I think I have a couple tidbits on the Rangers that I can send to you if you'd like...) We are all very patient here... I see you're pounding away at all those missing Dúnedain genealogical events... Woohoo! Pretty soon we'll run out of genealogical events to fill in, and whatever will we do with ourselves???? And Barbara, I know this is the wrong thread, but your proposed title formats look pretty good. Thank you, Loqi! I see the Entish language didn't scare you off... - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara I just realised, looking at the Púkel-men issue you raised below, that there were a whole bunch of diacritical marks missing from one of the HoMe quotes, so I've added that in. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. Ah, I assumed it was a fault with the electronic copy, not that they were missing from the printed copy (since some of my electronic copies are very lacking in the correct accents). I will investigate further. This might be something that we all should discuss and agree on... Yes definitely. Púkel-men Okay, you've gone over the top of my geek-o-meter there! Oh dear.... I hadn't really noticed the quote marks... But I was thinking of the Other Names box as documenting "names that the (modern-day) reader might encounter that refer to the Drúedain", whereas you're seeing it as "names that other Tolkien characters/peoples use to refer to the Drúedain"... That's a subtle distinction that I hadn't made before (because they are usually the same!) Perhaps a distinction that I make because I write more fic than you? I've been thinking about this some more and I agree I was probably reading too much into "Púkel-men" being "rude". However, I still think we should be cautious about putting Púkel-men into the Other Names field, because I don't think anyone in M-e would use it to refer to the Drúedain. We know the Rohirrim don't, Gondorians (and others) speaking Sindarin would call them Drúedain,, while Westron speakers would use some variant of the "actual word employed by the Rohirrim (of which "wose" is a translation [...]: róg, plural rógin." And, as Tolkien tells us, the translation of the Rohirric/Westron word is "Wose" not "Púkel-men". So "Púkel-men" is not one of the "Other Names" for Drúedain within the "reality" (for characters within M-e), only within the "meta-reality" (of us or Tolkien talking about M-e). I suppose what I fear is that, If we don't make that distinction somehow in the Other Names field, someone is going to write a story in which characters (especially Rohirrim) refer to the Drúedain (and not just the watch stones at Dunharrow) as "Púkel-men". Now, if they want to do that, I'm not going to try and stop them, but I'd rather they knew that doing so was probably not in accordance with canon, and I certainly don't want them doing that because they think HASA Resources told them this nice Anglo-Saxon word is one of the "Other Names" used for the Drúedain by characters in M-e. Umm, does that make any kind of sense? This is also where I'm feeling the urge to ensure that where there are other names (such as for Aragorn or Túrin) we document them, so people know when it is appropriate to use a particular name. They are not always interchangeable synonyms. In all three cases, do we want to add links to entries for specific members of that house for whom we have bios (eg Húrin and Túrin for the House of Hador) and perhaps events relating to those people? A very good question, and the authoritative answer is: um, well, maybe... That was my response! I think this is maybe something that will be resolved by getting your genealogies online, because then we just need one link into a particular family tree, which, with any luck can then be linked back out to the individual bios? But, on the other hand, that is true of all our linking -- as the library grows, already-finished entries won't necessarily be revised just to add the relevant new links (either in-text or sideline). Yes. It's the nature of the project that, unless we continually go back and revise, not everything will be linked as completely as it might be. This is partly why I end up doing 10 entres every time I tackle one entry, because I like to ensure it's possible to link to all the things that should be linked to. Another thought: I linked the Awakening of Men event to each of the three houses, but now I'm reconsidering: just because the Edain are the first men to come to the attention of the Elven historians when they (finally) reached Beleriand, doesn't mean that they were the first men. What do you think? Now I think you're assuming too much in thinking the three houses were the first men to awaken! Given the Drúedain are reckoned to have reached the Anduin first, perhaps they were the first to awaken? AFAIK, we simply don't know. I think the Awakening of Men event might be best linked to the general Men bio rather than any specific race of Men? Can I interest either of you in the "Roads in Western Beleriand" tidbits I have? Pre-linked? Cheap? Sure.. Send 'em over.... Cheers, Liz

 

Hey Loqi! Welcome back! You may add 'trying to put together a Voldemort's first rise to power timeline' to that list, Liz. Yes, of course. Together with an outline of Dumbledore's career.... * Dúnedain of the North (inc. Rangers) Oh, what the heck, I'll take it. Don't expect much work done anytime soon though Yay! I have some tidbits on the Northern Dúnedain that Gwynnyd has gathered as part of her trawl for quotes for the Aragorn bio that I will forward on to you. Cheers, Liz

 

Ah, I assumed it was a fault with the electronic copy, not that they were missing from the printed copy Oh dear, that actually might be true in some cases... but, I think, it's mostly that many (most???) of Tolkien's names didn't have edit: accents and such in the earlier drafts... This might be something that we all should discuss and agree on... Yes definitely. But now that I understand that you were putting in the accents because you thought they had been there originally, not to match the later (LoTR) variants of the name, then I don't think there's any disagreement... I've been thinking about this some more and I agree I was probably reading too much into "Púkel-men" being "rude". Agreed... So "Púkel-men" is not one of the "Other Names" for Drúedain within the "reality" (for characters within M-e), only within the "meta-reality" (of us or Tolkien talking about M-e). Yes, of course, you have thoroughly convinced me. I was thinking of the audience as being those who want every morsel of material on the topic, without remembering that our primary audience is fanfic writers. Silly me! This is also where I'm feeling the urge to ensure that where there are other names (such as for Aragorn or Túrin) we document them, so people know when it is appropriate to use a particular name. They are not always interchangeable synonyms. Yes, I've long agreed with you on that (which is why I'm a little embarrassed by my densitudinousness on the Púkel-men issue). Where the information is available, I'm leaning more and more toward documenting (in the Other Names field): 1) which language it's in, 2) who uses it, 3) what it means, edit: and 4) singular vs plural form. I first started doing that as I added names to the Rohirrim entry (although I would word it differently now), and did a complete job when I revised the Other Names list for Númenor (when I was looking something else up in the Silm Index and got distracted...), edit: and an example of singular vs plural can be seen in the entry for Men. do we want to add links to entries for specific members of that house for whom we have bios... I think this is maybe something that will be resolved by getting your genealogies online Yes, definitely... but, in the meantime, maybe it wouldn't hurt to link to a few key individuals and events... examples of their class, so to speak (like Aragorn for the Dúnedain, not *all* the Dúnedain in the db...) This is partly why I end up doing 10 entres every time I tackle one entry, because I like to ensure it's possible to link to all the things that should be linked to. LOL! I thought it was going to be a snap to enter one single Place entry for the Downs today, because all the other Places around it had already been entered, right?... but it mentions Methedras, which is missing... sigh... obsessiveness can be so time-consuming at times... I think the Awakening of Men event might be best linked to the general Men bio rather than any specific race of Men? Agree. Very good suggestion. (I *told* you I was fuzzy-minded yesterday... ) - Barbara P.S. I sent you the Roads in Western Beleriand tidbits...

 

*grin* Welcome back to the Unreal world! Thanks! (I think I have a couple tidbits on the Rangers that I can send to you if you'd like...) Sure, send away! I see you're pounding away at all those missing Dúnedain genealogical events... Woohoo! Pretty soon we'll run out of genealogical events to fill in, and whatever will we do with ourselves???? I'm sure we'll find something Speaking of which, I've already ran into to problems with the genealogical events. Number one is Aranarth, son of Arvedui's birth year, which, according to HoME 12 is 2 years before Arvedui and Firiel's marriage. Christopher Tolkien commented that of all the Chieftains' birth and death years, only Aranarth and Aragorn II's dates remained the same in both Manuscript B and C. Edit: Manuscript C being the version that was published. Is it an inconsistancy? Problem #2 is that I have two similar entries on the establishment of the Chieftains: one is Aranarth takes the title of Chieftain of Dúnedain, the other one Chieftains of the Dúnedain established. Both talk about the same thing, but one is more specifically about Aranarth taking the title. Should I keep both entries? ~Loqi

 

Welcome back! Thanks! Yay! I have some tidbits on the Northern Dúnedain that Gwynnyd has gathered as part of her trawl for quotes for the Aragorn bio that I will forward on to you. Oooh! Please send! Do you have my address? ~Loqi

 

Hi Loqi! Speaking of which, I've already ran into to problems with the genealogical events. Now, why am I not surprised? The dates of events from the Tale of Years tend to be more consistent with each other, but Tolkien didn't think the birth dates of the Kings/Chieftains (except for Rohan, and, I think, the Folk of Durin?) were important enough to include... Sigh! Having to rely on HoME for birth dates can be frustrating... Number one is Aranarth, son of Arvedui's birth year, Let me do some thinking and get back to you later on that... edit: I found the quote I need and will post my suggestion in a few minutes... Problem #2 is that I have two similar entries on the establishment of the Chieftains: one is Aranarth takes the title of Chieftain of Dúnedain, the other one Chieftains of the Dúnedain established. Ah, this is something that I can opine about now: I was surprised to see that you used the title "Aranarth takes the title..." instead of "Aranarth becomes...", but then I realized that that is what the Tale of Years says, and, of course, he is the first one. Then, I noticed that there is already a "Chieftains of the Dúnedain established" entry. So, what I recommend is this: keep the "CotD established" (political) entry, and rename the other (genealogical) one "Aranarth becomes CotD" . How does that sound? (Are my biases showing? ) I have already added these to the Links spreadsheet, BTW, so there is no need to send them to me separately... - Barbara edit: P.S. I'll send you my Rangers quotes... did I ever send you my Citations spreadsheet? Would you like that?

 

Speaking of which, I've already ran into to problems with the genealogical events. Number one is Aranarth, son of Arvedui's birth year, which, according to HoME 12 is 2 years before Arvedui and Firiel's marriage. Christopher Tolkien commented that of all the Chieftains' birth and death years, only Aranarth and Aragorn II's dates remained the same in both Manuscript B and C. Edit: Manuscript C being the version that was published. Is it an inconsistancy? Short answer: yes, it is an inconsistency within HoME. But the important thing is that the birth date from HoME is not canon, but the wedding date from the Tale of Years (1940) is canon. As far as the Timeline Event, I think you could set it at an arbitrary date of, say, one or two years after the marriage (Arvedui didn't die until 1944) then document that the date of the entry was adjusted arbitrarily edit: (maybe "estimated" sounds better?) because of an inconsistency between the birth date in HoME and the marriage date in the Tale of Years. Does that make sense? (I am assuming that there was no hanky-panky, especially since they lived in two separate kingdoms...) - Barbara

 

So, what I recommend is this: keep the "CotD established" (political) entry, and rename the other (genealogical) one "Aranarth becomes CotD" . How does that sound? (Are my biases showing?) Isn't Aranarth becoming CotD political though? That's what I thought, it's sort of like ascending to kingship (leadership), therefore political. Edit: Ooops! Forgot to answer your question, yes, I'll change the entry to Aranarth becomes CotD. Thanks! I have already added these to the Links spreadsheet, BTW, so there is no need to send them to me separately... Which ones? Just the CotD established related entries, or the whole North Kingdom genealogy entries? edit: P.S. I'll send you my Rangers quotes... did I ever send you my Citations spreadsheet? Would you like that? Thanks, and yes you did send me the citations spreadsheet (last dated Jan. 10), as well as the links one. As far as the Timeline Event, I think you could set it at an arbitrary date of, say, one or two years after the marriage (Arvedui didn't die until 1944) then document that the date of the entry was adjusted arbitrarily edit: (maybe "estimated" sounds better?) because of an inconsistency between the birth date in HoME and the marriage date in the Tale of Years. Uh... I think you mean 1975 instead of 1944. I have a strong impression that Arvedui had more than one child. Edit: Unless you mean Ondoher who died in 1944, and that's when Arvedui made his claim to the throne of Gondor. Though he didn't make a claim as the father of Aranarth, who was now the heir of Isildur and had Anarion's blood, he made a claim as Firiel's husband. Hmm... does that mean Aranarth could be born after 1944? Ok, so I'll create another entry that is set 2 years after Arvedui's marriage (because the inconsistancy shows two years prior), call it (tentatively, suggestions are welcome) "Aranarth of the Dunedain Born (arbitrary estimation)" and link it to the original Aranarth born entry. Does that make sense? (I am assuming that there was no hanky-panky, especially since they lived in two separate kingdoms...) Yes. I didn't think they would have an affair before that either, seeing that Arnor and Gondor renewed communication in the same year as their marraige. I was actually suspecting a first wife dying in child birth and Arvedui remarrying, but I doubt it. Btw, I've hit the Arathorn II born entry. Can I edit what you have in the entry to make it sound less redundant? I want to keep all the genealogy description consistant so that they all have that one sentence that states when they were born, what were their titles and who their fathers were. Thank you! ~Loqi

 

Isn't Aranarth becoming CotD political though? That's what I thought, it's sort of like ascending to kingship (leadership), therefore political. That was, indeed, my first thought, as well. But the guidelines on the "Add New Event" page say this: Genealogical - Births, deaths, marriages, ascensions Political - Foundings, councils, meetings, realms so I've been marking ascensions as genealogical. yes, I'll change the entry to Aranarth becomes CotD. Thanks! You're welcome! My opinions are free, and worth every penny... I have already added these to the Links spreadsheet Which ones? Just the CotD established related entries, or the whole North Kingdom genealogy entries? Just the ones you added last night, that I saw in the "Recent Updates to Events" list. If you happen to have a list of the existing ones (the addresses, that is), send it to me and I'll add them all to the spreadsheet. (I keep separate sheets for all Rohan Genealogical Events, Gondor GE, and would like to create an Arnor (north kingdoms) GE, as well as merging them into the main Links spreadsheet that I send to everyone.) Thanks, and yes you did send me the citations spreadsheet (last dated Jan. 10), as well as the links one. Oh, good, I was worried that I had somehow forgotten you... was there a reason you used a different format in your new entries? I did add a new one for that PoME chapter recently, so it's maybe not on the file you have (sorry!), but here are the relevant ones (replace { with <): {i>The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 7, {i>The Northern Line of Gondor: The Isildurioni {i>The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 7, {i>The Heirs of Elendil: The Chieftains of the Dúnedain (Arvedui didn't die until 1944) Uh... I think you mean 1975 instead of 1944. I have a strong impression that Arvedui had more than one child. DOH! Sorry! Yes, I meant 1975 (so he didn't have to be in any hurry to procreate...) Yes, he had at least one more son that we know of. Ok, so I'll create another entry that is set 2 years after Arvedui's marriage (because the inconsistancy shows two years prior), call it (tentatively, suggestions are welcome) "Aranarth of the Dunedain Born (arbitrary estimation)" and link it to the original Aranarth born entry. Um, so you will leave the original entry in the Timeline Events at two years before they're married? If you're going to leave the original entry there, there's really no need whatsoever to create another, in my opinion. What I was suggesting was to quote the PoME (uncanon, obviously invalid) date, but to set the date of the entry at a more reasonable estimated date, and then to note why the date needed to be estimated.. Btw, I've hit the Arathorn II born entry. Can I edit what you have in the entry to make it sound less redundant? I want to keep all the genealogy description consistant so that they all have that one sentence that states when they were born, what were their titles and who their fathers were. Be my guest... edit away! The introductory sentence is great. My only requirement is to have a quote, any quote, that establishes the date (if one exists, that is!) - Barbara

 

Genealogical - Births, deaths, marriages, ascensions Political - Foundings, councils, meetings, realms *facepalm* I obviously completely missed that. I guess that's another thing I need to change when I revise my Genealogy entires. If you happen to have a list of the existing ones (the addresses, that is), send it to me and I'll add them all to the spreadsheet. I plan on doing that, after I finish creating the entries. Oh, good, I was worried that I had somehow forgotten you... was there a reason you used a different format in your new entries? Uhh.... no reason at all, other then the fact that I completely forgot about using the spreadsheet. You see, this is the first time I've added entries since you sent me the spreadsheets. Um, so you will leave the original entry in the Timeline Events at two years before they're married? If you're going to leave the original entry there, there's really no need whatsoever to create another, in my opinion. What I was suggesting was to quote the PoME (uncanon, obviously invalid) date, but to set the date of the entry at a more reasonable estimated date, and then to note why the date needed to be estimated.. Ah, sorry, I obviously misread you. Sure, I can do that. Is this ok? Should I also give the reason why it is placed in 1942? Be my guest... edit away! The introductory sentence is great. My only requirement is to have a quote, any quote, that establishes the date (if one exists, that is!) Thanks! And of course there will be quotes! ~Loqi

 

Ah, sorry, I obviously misread you. Sure, I can do that. Is this ok? Ah, yes, much better. Only one nitpick: in the title, I would say (estimated date) rather than (arbitrary estimation); first of all,it is more clear *what* is being estimated, and secondly, it sounds less... arbitrary. (We only make reasonable estimates here, not arbitrary ones... ) At first, I was a little surprised that you wanted to mention the estimated date in the title, but now I rather like your idea. I'll probably add "(estimated date)" to my entry for Gondor recaptures Osgiliath and rebuilds its bridge. In fact, it seems to me that I have seen a few events that I wanted to add to the database, but didn't have a date for -- maybe it would be okay to do so with that note in the title (as well as the note in the text, of course). Hmmmm.... If you want to say why you picked 1942 specifically, that's fine (it couldn't possibly have taken the studly Dúnedain any more than two years to produce an heir ), but I think it's probably enough to state that you made an estimate to follow the canonical marriage date edit: (by at least nine months...) Thanks! And of course there will be quotes! With you, Loqi, I wasn't the least bit worried... - Barbara

 

Only one nitpick: in the title, I would say (estimated date) rather than (arbitrary estimation); first of all,it is more clear *what* is being estimated, and secondly, it sounds less... arbitrary. (We only make reasonable estimates here, not arbitrary ones... ) You're right, thank you. And it's done. If you want to say why you picked 1942 specifically, that's fine (it couldn't possibly have taken the studly Dúnedain any more than two years to produce an heir ), but I think it's probably enough to state that you made an estimate to follow the canonical marriage date edit: (by at least nine months...) I had reasons to pick a 2 year range. Because they renewed communication and married in the same year and that it takes at least several weeks to have a messenger go from North to South and vice versa. It's probably safe to say that it took the kings and nobles several months to get to know each other and another few to arrange the (probably very big) wedding. So by the time they actually have their honeymoon, the year is almost over. Of course, we must give them a couple of months to try to conceive an heir. Add 9 months to that makes almost 2 years. I don't think I'll put my reasoning in the entry though, because it's a bit long-winded. The user can make their own estimation if they want. ~Loqi

 

I don't think I'll put my reasoning in the entry though, because it's a bit long-winded. Sounds reasonable to me, and I agree, no need to explain the reasoning... BTW, Loqi, congratulations on entering the 700th timeline event! That deserves a rousing woohoo! - Barbara

 

BTW, Loqi, congratulations on entering the 700th timeline event! That deserves a rousing woohoo! YAAAAAAAAY!!!! Wow! I didn't even realize it. XD No confetti, but chocolate for everyone!! ~Loqi

 

No confetti, but chocolate for everyone!! YESSSSSSS! Chocolate is much easier to chew, melts in your mouth, and is sooo much more tasty than confetti! - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara Back to the discussion we were having on Drúedain and calling them Púkel-men: Yes, of course, you have thoroughly convinced me. I was thinking of the audience as being those who want every morsel of material on the topic, without remembering that our primary audience is fanfic writers. Silly me! Well, the audience is both, I think, but fanfic writers are equally important and we shouldn't neglect their needs. I've revised the Drúedain entry to include Púkel-men in Other Names but with a note explaining that M-e characters probably don' t call them that. Let me know what you think! (Also, I changed back the part where I added in the accents, as it seems these weren't in the printed copy. Which is somewhat confusing....) And on linking to individuals/events to houses in the meantime, maybe it wouldn't hurt to link to a few key individuals and events... examples of their class, so to speak (like Aragorn for the Dúnedain, not *all* the Dúnedain in the db...) Agreed. BTW, Loqi, congratulations on entering the 700th timeline event! That deserves a rousing woohoo! No confetti, but chocolate for everyone!! Congratulations Loqi. *Liz rolls in a barrel of ale from The Golden Perch* Cheers, Liz

 

I've revised the Drúedain entry to include Púkel-men in Other Names but with a note explaining that M-e characters probably don' t call them that. Let me know what you think! Ah, very nice! (Question: is the term "Wose" used by anyone except the Rohirrim? Yes, it's in Westron, but IIRC it's an A-S translation, so perhaps more specific to the Rohirrim than, say, "Wild Men"?) (Also, I changed back the part where I added in the accents, as it seems these weren't in the printed copy. Which is somewhat confusing....) Good. Yes, it is confusing... but that's what we get for taking quotes from earlier drafts... hope our users aren't too confused... Congratulations Loqi. *Liz rolls in a barrel of ale from The Golden Perch* Wow! You really know how to celebrate in style! - Barbara

 

Question: is the term "Wose" used by anyone except the Rohirrim? Yes, it's in Westron, but IIRC it's an A-S translation, so perhaps more specific to the Rohirrim than, say, "Wild Men"? Took me a while to think my way around this one, but I believe I have an answer. "Wose" is Tolkien's "modernised" form of A-S "wása" (which hasn't carried forward into modern English). So it seems to me that (because of the modernisation) Tolkien intended "Wose" to be translation of the Westron word, while he would have used "wása" to translate the Rohirric. Does that make sense? Cheers, Liz

 

"Wose" is Tolkien's "modernised" form of A-S "wása" (which hasn't carried forward into modern English). So it seems to me that (because of the modernisation) Tolkien intended "Wose" to be translation of the Westron word, while he would have used "wása" to translate the Rohirric. Ah, yes, good point! I agree that it is Westron. But I'm distinguishing between "what language it's in" vs "who uses it". For example, in my Rohirrim entry, there's the word "forgoil", which is unquestionably in the Dunlendish language (and therefore used by the Dunlendings only), whereas "whiteskins" is Westron (not Orcish as I have in the entry -- I'm going to fix that sometime*), but it is only used by the Orcs. Does that make any sense? (It's like Minas Tirith: only the Rohirrim call it "Mundburg", even though it's in Westron, and therefore could also be used by Bree-landers, for example.) Edit: Or am I just going off the top of the geek-o-meter now? - Barbara * I probably should change it to something like: "whiteskins (by the Rohirrim)" Edit: What in the world was I thinking? That sentence should read: I probably should change it to something like: "whiteskins (by the Orcs)"

 

Or am I just going off the top of the geek-o-meter now? Well, I have to admit this conversation is starting to scare me.... I see your point about "who uses it" - in fact, the only person who ever uses "Wose" is Elfhelm. As he's speaking to Merry, he must be using Westron. So I can agree that it's not a word that might have wide currency outside Rohan - just as there is no modern equivalent of wása. I suspect the Breelanders would use the term "Wild Men" if they ever met Druedain. How about I change the note to:

...while Westron speakers would use a variant of the word employed by the Rohirrim (Rohirric being related to Westron), which Tolkien translates as “wose” or "Wild Men".

(It's like Minas Tirith: only the Rohirrim call it "Mundburg", even though it's in Westron, and therefore could also be used by Bree-landers, for example.) Beg to disagree here - Mundburg is an A-S compound (Mund = protection, burg = city), not a modern English one. Therefore it represents a Rohirric term, not a Westron one, and wouldn't be used by the Bree-men. *stops and considers* Darnation, Barbara, you're just trying to set that languages nuzgul back on me, aren't you....? Cheers, Liz

 

Well, I have to admit this conversation is starting to scare me.... Liz, I think I was just over-analyzing... which I tend to do sometimes. Your entry is absolutely fine as is. Sorry! Beg to disagree here - Mundburg is an A-S compound (Mund = protection, burg = city), not a modern English one. Therefore it represents a Rohirric term, not a Westron one, and wouldn't be used by the Bree-men. I stand corrected! (metaphorically speaking, of course, since I'm actually sitting at the computer...) - Barbara Edit: P.S. Speaking of languages, I'm compiling a quick entry for the "Language of the Rohirrim". Should I call it "Rohirric"? When I see the "R" in Tolkien's linguistic notes, I think Rohirric, but I'm not sure he ever used that term... Edit 2: Never mind. I didn't find Rohirric anywhere, must have made it up. "Language of the Rohirrim" it will be...

 

I did a quick-and-dirty entry for the Edain... It's not intended to be definitive or complete, just a placeholder to link to from other entries. - Barbara

 

That's not quick-and-dirty, that's a very nice entry for Edain. But I'm sure there's far more that could included. Cheers, Liz (PS - the conversation about "Woses" was scaring me because of the amount of research and thought I was putting into it....)

 

Hey, researchers! Quick request. Could Númenóreans be added to the character list? I'm writing a Silmarien story, and would like to be more specific than Men (though I could put Dunedain, but... Númenóreans is more specific). Thanks! Allie

 

Could Númenóreans be added to the character list? I pulled together some notes and created a very quick-and-dirty entry for Númenóreans. I'm really not sure how long it will take for it to show up on the character list, but I suspect that it might take at least a day. - Barbara

 

...but the question about Theodred's hair colour has re-awakened my desire to tackle the Gondorian and Dunlendings & Related Races incl Men of the White Mountains Races bios, if they're still up for grabs. (In the vain hope I might actually be able to find the answer to why there are apparently no fair-haired Gondorians left.) Why do I do this to myself? Cheers, Liz

 

...but the question about Theodred's hair colour has re-awakened my desire to tackle the Gondorian and Dunlendings & Related Races incl Men of the White Mountains Races bios, if they're still up for grabs. You are still most welcome to them... I haven't even really finished Rohirrim yet... Why do I do this to myself? Because you have a brilliant, inquiring mind... yeah, that's it... - Barbara

 

Why do I do this to myself? Because you are intellectually curious, and altruistic? As soon as RL lets up, I may have to pick up another race of elves, based on your example. Lyllyn

 

Because you have a brilliant, inquiring mind... yeah, that's it... Because you are intellectually curious, and altruistic? Sure. That must be it. Flattery will get you everywhere. As soon as RL lets up, I may have to pick up another race of elves, based on your example. So I'm inspiring too? But this is Good News. Cheers, Liz

 

Hi folks I've put up an incomplete first draft of the new Gondorians bio. (It still needs in-text links and sidelinks, amongst other things) I think most of the sections are reasonably complete and sufficiently comprehensive working mainly from information in LotR, the appendices and the Silm. I'm sure I could find plenty more in HoMe, but I think it might not provide much extra illumination for the extra complexity. If you can think of anything I've missed that really ought to be in there, please let me know. The section I'm still working on and struggling with is History, and. I was hoping to get some feedback before I go further. I've been cribbing shamelessly from Barbara's amazing Northmen of Rhovanion entry, and trying to use links where possible to Timeline Events (and I can see we need to enter some new ones!). I'm wondering whether I have the right amount of narrative around those links. Too much, too little, just right? Is the content of the narrative right? And is the narrative interspersed with the links in the right way or should I be breaking it up more? Edit: I have now entered some new timeline entries and tried to reduce the amount of narrative text in the Gondorian bios, but would still appreciate feedback on whether I have the right amount. Any thoughts and input would be most welcome. Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Liz! The Gondorian entry looks GREAT! Edit: And the balance of quotes and event links in the History section looks fine to me. I have a few picky comments, but, well, they are picky... as usual, YMMV. Edit: First, it looks like Gonnhirrim is an Other Name. Oh, dear! Sorry -- they're the Dwarves. Don't know where my mind went... Edit 2: Okay, here's a real synonym: Stonehouse-folk (used by -- who else? -- Ghân-buri-Ghân). Edit 3: Not to mention, Stone-folk. their eyes […] were very keen and bright. [….] Frodo saw that they were goodly men, -> [did you intend to add a period after the ellipsis in the second set of ellipses? I believe it to be unnecessary (and a bit distracting).] ‘Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living -> [needs a trailing quote somewhere (and I think I'm going to steal that quote for the House of the Stewards and Houses of the King entries... maybe Rath Dínen, too, if it's not already there...] [Gondorians preserved much lore and skill from Númenor, but appear to have been particularly noted for their architecture, medicine and seafaring skills:] ... Though war never ceased on their borders, for more than a thousand years the Dúnedain of the South grew in wealth and power by land and sea, until the reign of Atanatar II, who was called Alcarin, the Glorious. -> [doesn't this quote also indicate accomplished military skills? If so, I'd add that to the introductory list.] 3320 Realms in Exile founded: Arnor and Gondor -> [maybe include the fall of Númenor first, since it led directly to the realms in exile being founded? And, it's a piece of overlapping history that ties the Númenóreans with the Gondorians, like the Invasion of Calenardhon by Balchoth and Orcs, tying the Éothéod with the Rohirrim in much the same way. And you might also add a note saying something like "For the earlier history of the Gondorians, see the Númenóreans history" (oh, dear, I don't think I have a history there yet, maybe that's not such a good idea at the moment... aaaauuuugh! too many loose ends!)] — Siege of Barad-dûr: Overview -> [I can't tell you how pleased I am that you added this to the Resource Library! Some people actually confuse the Battle of Dagorlad with the Siege, so it's great to have two separate event entries to point to.] War between Sauron and Gondor -> [I recommend leaving the first two events under this heading, then giving The Last Alliance its own subheading... It is such a major event, and is so often referred to under that name, that I would give it its own group of events (i.e. skip a line between the WbS&G and The Last Alliance). Besides, the Last Alliance includes Arnor, the Elves, the Northmen of Rhovanion, (and maybe even some Dwarves?) so it is not exactly limited to (Sauron and) Gondor...] [Sauron] fled back to Middle-earth […] He re-entered Mordor, -> I recommend a clarification, something like "fled back to Middle-earth [from the downfall of Númenor] ..." [on second thought, maybe it would be better just to move this quote above the event links for the WbS&G and the Last Alliance? It's a transitional type of quote... hmmmm, well, okay, it's hard to decide exactly where it fits best...] — — Tarostar, King Rómendacil I of Gondor, Slain in the 2nd Invasion of Gondor by Easterlings -> I fudge the titles of the actual entries for the events a bit to fit the context of having them all listed together. For example, I would say merely "Tarostar, King Rómendacil I of Gondor, Slain", because it's already indented under the 2nd IGE] […] Gondor reached the summit of its power. ... -> [I would leave the paragraph above this where it is, and move this paragraph to below the "Gondor reaches the height of its power" event. Or, move the Grthoip event above the quote with the others.] All told the Dúnedain were thus from the beginning far fewer in number that the lesser men among whom they dwelt and whom they ruled, being lords of long life and great power and wisdom. -> [you may want to consider adding that small snippet to the Origins section, despite it being repeated later in Language] Many used some other tongue than the Common Speech, but it was not long before he learned at least -> [Pippin] learned ? Gondor [means] 'Land of Stone' -> [BTW, we do know that Gondor is Sindarin. I'll send you my tidbits file with the etymology of Gondor from the Silm; use (some of) it or not as you choose...] [Some research articles which provide additional information that may be of use to fanfic writers are: Gondorians and Gondorian Military Organisation and Government] -> [Good idea to mention these! Although, I would leave out the explicit reference to fanfic writers -- really, the articles are interesting to anyone with an interest in Gondorians... (and I'm uncomfortable even mentioning fanfic in a scholarly entry like this one... vaguely worried that it might reduce its credibility in the eyes of some...)] (much of the history section was borrowed from Elena Tiriel's Northmen of Rhovanion entry) -> [*blush* my goodness, you didn't need to credit me! but thank you, anyway!] Hope this helps! - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara! Thank you for checking through the Gondorian bio. And the balance of quotes and event links in the History section looks fine to me. Excellent. I managed to get much more ruthless about them compared with the first version I posted. I think the history sections of these bios should have enough quotes so that, with the event titles, they tell the story without the reader needing to go to the event entries, yet they shouldn't bog the reader down in too much detail that is in the event entries themselves. I have a few picky comments, but, well, they are picky... as usual, YMMV. That’s why I love you and appreciate you. Picky is good in many places but especially in Resources. Edit: First, it looks like Gonnhirrim is an Other Name. Oh, dear! Sorry -- they're the Dwarves. Don't know where my mind went... Edit 2: Okay, here's a real synonym: Stonehouse-folk (used by -- who else? -- Ghân-buri-Ghân). Edit 3: Not to mention, Stone-folk. Check – Stonehouse-folk and Stone-folk added and references included in the etymology section. their eyes […] were very keen and bright. [….] Frodo saw that they were goodly men, -> [did you intend to add a period after the ellipsis in the second set of ellipses? I believe it to be unnecessary (and a bit distracting).] Umm, no. (What, you want proofreading when I’m already cross-eyed? I really appreciate your proofreading of my articles, btw. ) Check – changed. ‘Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living -> [needs a trailing quote somewhere (and I think I'm going to steal that quote for the House of the Stewards and Houses of the King entries... maybe Rath Dínen, too, if it's not already there...] Check. And yes, it’s a very nice quote. Faramir was most helpful when compiling the history of his people. [Gondorians preserved much lore and skill from Númenor, but appear to have been particularly noted for their architecture, medicine and seafaring skills:] ... Though war never ceased on their borders, for more than a thousand years the Dúnedain of the South grew in wealth and power by land and sea, until the reign of Atanatar II, who was called Alcarin, the Glorious. -> [doesn't this quote also indicate accomplished military skills? If so, I'd add that to the introductory list.] Hmm, I was struggling with “skills” because I was trying to include skills that particularly distinguished the Gondorians from other men or other races. The Gondorians are quite good at a heck of a lot of things, without being exceptional at too many. (Monumental architecture was actually the strongest characteristic we could think of when I brainstormed with Marta and Gwynnyd). And most races of Men have accomplished military skills. What the Gondorians do better than most is naval warfare, which is why I concentrated on seafaring; what they do worse than many is cavalry. I’ve changed it to: [Gondorians preserved much lore and skill from Númenor, but appear to have been particularly noted for their architecture, medicine and seafaring, especially when applied to naval warfare:] How does that sound? 3320 Realms in Exile founded: Arnor and Gondor -> [maybe include the fall of Númenor first, since it led directly to the realms in exile being founded? And, it's a piece of overlapping history that ties the Númenóreans with the Gondorians, like the Invasion of Calenardhon by Balchoth and Orcs, tying the Éothéod with the Rohirrim in much the same way. And you might also add a note saying something like "For the earlier history of the Gondorians, see the Númenóreans history" Check – Downfall added, along with a link to the Númenoreans bio. (oh, dear, I don't think I have a history there yet, maybe that's not such a good idea at the moment... aaaauuuugh! too many loose ends!)] *snickers* I’ve just added a link to the main Númenoreans entry, so the chain from Númenoreans to (some) Gondorians is clear without either of us needing to work through the Númenoreans history right now. — Siege of Barad-dûr: Overview -> [I can't tell you how pleased I am that you added this to the Resource Library! Some people actually confuse the Battle of Dagorlad with the Siege, so it's great to have two separate event entries to point to.] You’re welcome. One of the useful things about doing these history sections for the separate races is that it helps us fill in some of the gaps. There are still a number of events surrounding the Last Alliance that need to be added (the death of Gil-galad being one of them). I’m concentrating on just Gondorian-related events (need to keep some kind of control over things!) but making a note of anything I think risks being “overlooked”. War between Sauron and Gondor -> [I recommend leaving the first two events under this heading, then giving The Last Alliance its own subheading... It is such a major event, and is so often referred to under that name, that I would give it its own group of events (i.e. skip a line between the WbS&G and The Last Alliance). Besides, the Last Alliance includes Arnor, the Elves, the Northmen of Rhovanion, (and maybe even some Dwarves?) so it is not exactly limited to (Sauron and) Gondor...] Check. I did wonder about that myself, so your vote in favour has swayed me. I have just included Last Alliance events that deal with Gondor, though. There really should be a Last Alliance overview that covers everything…. (see, these timeline events just breed!) [Sauron] fled back to Middle-earth […] He re-entered Mordor, -> I recommend a clarification, something like "fled back to Middle-earth [from the downfall of Númenor] ..." [on second thought, maybe it would be better just to move this quote above the event links for the WbS&G and the Last Alliance? It's a transitional type of quote... hmmmm, well, okay, it's hard to decide exactly where it fits best...] I’ve done a bit of shuffling and I think it’s been clarified by adding in the information on the Downfall first and separating the WbS&G from the Last Alliance. Let me know what you think now. — — Tarostar, King Rómendacil I of Gondor, Slain in the 2nd Invasion of Gondor by Easterlings -> I fudge the titles of the actual entries for the events a bit to fit the context of having them all listed together. For example, I would say merely "Tarostar, King Rómendacil I of Gondor, Slain", because it's already indented under the 2nd IGE] Check - good idea and changed. […] Gondor reached the summit of its power. ... -> [I would leave the paragraph above this where it is, and move this paragraph to below the "Gondor reaches the height of its power" event. Or, move the Grthoip event above the quote with the others.] Check – I went with the first choice, since I wanted the Grthoip event to clearly stand alone, rather than be swamped at the bottom of the WwHaU entries. All told the Dúnedain were thus from the beginning far fewer in number that the lesser men among whom they dwelt and whom they ruled, being lords of long life and great power and wisdom. -> [you may want to consider adding that small snippet to the Origins section, despite it being repeated later in Language] Actually, that quote is effectively expanded on by a quote from HoMe 12 already in the Origins section: it uses almost the same words but with more detail. So I’m not inclined to repeat this one in Origins, since I don't think it adds anything significant there, and the bio is already pretty long. Many used some other tongue than the Common Speech, but it was not long before he learned at least -> [Pippin] learned ? Check – changed. Gondor [means] 'Land of Stone' -> [BTW, we do know that Gondor is Sindarin. I'll send you my tidbits file with the etymology of Gondor from the Silm; use (some of) it or not as you choose...] Added with much snipping. Thank you. [Some research articles which provide additional information that may be of use to fanfic writers are: Gondorians and Gondorian Military Organisation and Government] -> [Good idea to mention these! Although, I would leave out the explicit reference to fanfic writers -- really, the articles are interesting to anyone with an interest in Gondorians... (and I'm uncomfortable even mentioning fanfic in a scholarly entry like this one... vaguely worried that it might reduce its credibility in the eyes of some...)] Hmm, see I’m worried that we risk giving these articles more status that they deserve, and that we will propagate fanons. The Military article in particular is extremely speculative. So I’ve changed this to: [Some research articles which provide additional canon information or which offer speculation based on extrapolation from canon are:…] How does that sound? I also realised I probably ought to be less selfish and go and check if there are any other articles not written by me that I should list here! I found a couple more, so I added them in. (much of the history section was borrowed from Elena Tiriel's Northmen of Rhovanion entry) -> [*blush* my goodness, you didn't need to credit me! but thank you, anyway!] Given I copied large chunks pretty much verbatim, I really didn’t feel right not crediting you!! Hope this helps! As always, yes. Thank you! I posted a new version of the bio with links added into the “completed” sections (ie everything but the History parts). No doubt I have introduced a bunch of new errors. And I will plod on with more Gondorian History soon…. Cheers, Liz

 

Thank you for checking through the Gondorian bio. You're welcome, Liz! Sorry it took so long -- I had to wait until I had a block of time in which I was not being distracted by something else -- like Muses demanding immediate attention... I think the history sections of these bios should have enough quotes so that, with the event titles, they tell the story without the reader needing to go to the event entries, yet they shouldn't bog the reader down in too much detail that is in the event entries themselves. Yes. Or, put another way, use just enough detail to entice some readers into clicking the event links, without bogging down those that don't. Hmm, I was struggling with “skills” because I was trying to include skills that particularly distinguished the Gondorians from other men or other races. The Gondorians are quite good at a heck of a lot of things, without being exceptional at too many. Ah, now I understand. Whereas, we have to scrape for every tidbit of skills information for most of the other races I've dealt with, we know almost too much about the Gondorian skill-set. Yes, now I, too, think it's reasonable to concentrate on their exceptional skills. [Gondorians preserved much lore and skill from Númenor, but appear to have been particularly noted for their architecture, medicine and seafaring, especially when applied to naval warfare:] Sounds good, though you might just simplify it to "especially naval warfare". There are still a number of events surrounding the Last Alliance that need to be added (the death of Gil-galad being one of them). Yes, indeed, including an overview. Let me know if you ever want to tackle it: I have a few quotes saved, and some preliminary ideas of how to break up the (remaining) events, but might not get around to it for A Very Long Time... I’m concentrating on just Gondorian-related events (need to keep some kind of control over things!) *Snickers* Yeah, that works so well for me... I have just included Last Alliance events that deal with Gondor, though. That's pretty much what I do (wonder if I'll ever finish the Rohirrim history?): the overviews and then just the relevant sub-events... There really should be a Last Alliance overview that covers everything…. (see, these timeline events just breed!) *Snerk* I'd noticed that myself... Saruman's designs on Rohan has encompassed nearly 80 events! And I still haven't written the overview *sob*... I’ve done a bit of shuffling and I think it’s been clarified by adding in the information on the Downfall first and separating the WbS&G from the Last Alliance. Let me know what you think now. Yes, I'll try to re-read the entry in the next day or two... Actually, that quote is effectively expanded on by a quote from HoMe 12 already in the Origins section: it uses almost the same words but with more detail. So I’m not inclined to repeat this one in Origins, Certainly. I made the suggestion on the appeal of that quote alone, without checking that you had a better one in Origins already. (I just love it when Tolkien gives us similar quotes, so we can choose exactly where they will have the most impact without repeating any...) Added with much snipping. Thank you. You're welcome. You know, the problem with pulling together an etymology is that it then applies to so many names... they breed like bunnies... Hmm, see I’m worried that we risk giving these articles more status that they deserve, and that we will propagate fanons. The Military article in particular is extremely speculative. So I’ve changed this to: [Some research articles which provide additional canon information or which offer speculation based on extrapolation from canon are:…] Excellent! Very nicely done, Liz! And I will try to look over the new version soon... - Barbara

 

Hi Barabara To be much briefer than usual (hurrah, says everyone ): * I've made the change on the "Skills" note * thank you very much, but no, I don't want to do the Last Alliance overview (certainly not now!) * hugs on "Saruman's designs on Rohan". Poor Barbara and I think that's it. Off to borrow more of your Northmen events for my timeline. Cheers, Liz

 

Speaking of Saruman's designs on Rohan, I have a question for everybody: I am trying to compile the overview for Saruman's invasion (which, fortunately, didn't work out quite as planned ), and am not sure what to call it: Invasion of Westfold by Saruman, or Invasion of Rohan by Saruman? The reason I ask is that I think more people would recognize the name "Rohan" than "Westfold" -- but on the other hand, "massive invasion of Westfold" is a direct quote from Unfinished Tales, and I try to use (or adapt) quoted names of battles whenever possible. In case you're wondering, this will be a super-super event, encompassing all these super events: Orc-raid at Parth Galen (not part of the invasion per se, but part of Saruman's machinations, and a trigger for other events that are more directly related), Attack on the Orc-raiders at Fangorn, 1st Battle of the Fords of Isen, (various events having to do with the travels of the Three Hunters and Gandalf), 2nd Battle of the Fords of Isen, Destruction of Isengard by Ents, and Battle of the Hornburg. This will be the first super-super (tertiary level) event overview that I've attempted, which will be good practice for when (if!) I do an overview for The War of the Ring. Any ideas? - Barbara Edit: Um, this is in the Races of Men thread because I goofed it will go into the Rohirrim Bio whenever I manage to finish it... yeah, that's it...

 

Hi Barbara I agree that Westfold may be less than clear to some users. How about combining the two into the slightly longer Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan by Saruman? Also, at the risk of making you run away screaming, are you planning a super-super-super event which covers all of Saruman's machinations in Rohan? Since there are events outside the pure invasion of the Westfold that are related to it. I'm thinking of Grima entering into Saruman's service and gaining influence over Theoden, Saruman making overtures to the Dunlendings, Saruman breeding uruk-hai, Gandalf's escape and arrival at Edoras helping to clueing in at least some of the Rohirric court (Theodred, Eomer and Eowyn at least, I guess) that Saruman is a threat. Maybe even Saruman getting supplies from the Shire to support his efforts in Rohan. If you did an entry that covered all of this, you could call it something like Assault on Rohan by Saruman. Anyway, just a thought.... Cheers, Liz

 

Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan by Saruman *chuckle* Oh, ye of little tolerance for Entish names... yeah, that will work. Also, at the risk of making you run away screaming, are you planning a super-super-super event which covers all of Saruman's machinations in Rohan? No, this is a mere super-super one, that only includes the events that immediately surround or most directly affect the invasion... Since there are events outside the pure invasion of the Westfold that are related to it. Yes, absolutely, but some you mention I've earmarked (in my vague "someday" plans) for other super-events... These are what I had in mind (preliminary names): - Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan by Saruman - Imprisonment of Gandalf by Saruman - Hunt for the Ring by the Nazgûl (think: Nazgûl running around invisible, scaring the pants off the Rohirrim...) So, specifically: Grima entering into Saruman's service: we don't have any details about this, do we? Like when or how? Grima ... gaining influence over Theoden: got Théoden's health ("subtle" poisons, my foot) and Gríma as counsellor; yes, part of Invasion. Saruman breeding uruk-hai: Invasion (yes, probably important enough to make a separate event - good idea!). Saruman making overtures to the Dunlendings: I hadn't considered entering that as an event... hmmm, is it as important (or unusual) as breeding Uruk-hai? (Invasion, if I do it. Could just be part of Prelude, rather than a separate event. IIRC, it's already in the Prelude of some of the battles.) Gandalf's escape and arrival at Edoras helping to clueing in ... that Saruman is a threat.: Imprisonment - already have Radagast, Orthanc, Gwaihir, Edoras, Shadowfax. (Also, the imprisonment itself overlaps with Hunt.) Maybe even Saruman getting supplies from the Shire to support his efforts in Rohan.: Ummm, Hunt, I think...but I'm not sure it warrants a separate event entry. If and when I do the Imprisonment overview, I'll mention it in the timeline of the Invasion; but I'm not sure the Hunt overview would be particularly relevant. What do you think? - Barbara, who enjoys having a victim er, colleague to discuss these ideas with...

 

*chuckle* Oh, ye of little tolerance for Entish names... yeah, that will work. Hey, I like the Entish names. I just don't feel they're always very practical, and I fear Lyllyn and Ang's thunderbolts.... some you mention I've earmarked (in my vague "someday" plans) for other super-events... These are what I had in mind (preliminary names): - Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan by Saruman - Imprisonment of Gandalf by Saruman - Hunt for the Ring by the Nazgûl (think: Nazgûl running around invisible, scaring the pants off the Rohirrim...) Aha. I wasn't clear on the scope of what you were proposing with the "Invasion..." entry. The other super-events look good, as do you explanations of where some of my suggestions go. Grima entering into Saruman's service: we don't have any details about this, do we? Like when or how? No, we don't know precisely, and your existing entries seem to have this covered. Saruman making overtures to the Dunlendings: I hadn't considered entering that as an event... hmmm, is it as important (or unusual) as breeding Uruk-hai? (Invasion, if I do it. Could just be part of Prelude, rather than a separate event. IIRC, it's already in the Prelude of some of the battles.) Well, it's "Saruman and the Dunlendings form an alliance" really, isn't it? It may well just be part of Prelude rather than a separate event. On the other hand, it could also be an event I link to from the Dunlendings bio I'm supposed to be doing one day, so that's probably why I thought of it. Either that or I'm getting too much into micro-events. (Gimli kills his first orc at Helm's Deep; Gimli kills his second orc at Helm's Deep...) Maybe even Saruman getting supplies from the Shire to support his efforts in Rohan.: Ummm, Hunt, I think...but I'm not sure it warrants a separate event entry. Well, not being a Hobbity person (hmm, but I know a woman who is... maybe time to trot off to smile sweetly at Marta) there could one day be a timeline for Hobbits and The Shire which should include this, and it is a prelude event to the Scouring of the Shire. Doesn't mean (see my ramblings in the other thread that you need to do it as a separate entry now. - Barbara, who enjoys having a victim er, colleague to discuss these ideas with... Cheers, Liz, who also enjoys ditto, although I have been told we may be scaring other people (off) with the level of geeky detail we're going into.

 

Hi Loqi! I hope you don't mind, but I did a quick-and-dirty bio for the Dúnedain of the North, just so we would have a dummy entry (a "placeholder") to link to before you get the real entry done. It's just one quote, so I didn't use the Races Template. Feel free to replace or change it as you please. - Barbara

 

I hope you don't mind, but I did a quick-and-dirty bio for the Dúnedain of the North, just so we would have a dummy entry (a "placeholder") to link to before you get the real entry done. Of course I don't mind. I have a feeling I won't be getting to do the real entry anytime soon. Sorry. Thanks for getting it started! ~Loqi

 

Aha. I wasn't clear on the scope of what you were proposing with the "Invasion..." entry. The other super-events look good, as do you explanations of where some of my suggestions go. Good, thanks! Well, it's "Saruman and the Dunlendings form an alliance" really, isn't it? It may well just be part of Prelude rather than a separate event. On the other hand, it could also be an event I link to from the Dunlendings bio I'm supposed to be doing one day, so that's probably why I thought of it. You're right, that does sound important. I'll add it to my list. (How is it that I have 80 sub-events for Saruman's Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan, and you, in one post, managed to come up with two more that I didn't think of?) Maybe even Saruman getting supplies from the Shire to support his efforts in Rohan. ... ...it is a prelude event to the Scouring of the Shire. Actually, in the Hunt for the Ring stuff (which I am not going to do anytime soon...), I'd like to include the quote about how Saruman's agents were able to misdirect the Nazgûl for a while... that was on the east of the Misty Mtns, but Saruman's making alliances in general fits into that indirectly... as well as setting up trade with the Shire -- he had agents there and in Bree, too (until the Nazgûl found them, that is Terror is such a useful political tool...) Cheers, Liz, who also enjoys ditto, although I have been told we may be scaring other people (off) with the level of geeky detail we're going into. Yes, I think your idea of moving some of the more *cough*involved*cough* discussions into the Workshop is a good one... - Barbara

 

Of course I don't mind. I have a feeling I won't be getting to do the real entry anytime soon. Sorry. That's okay! There was never any rush! - Barbara, who has been working on the Rohirrim entry off and on for -- what, five months now?

 

Either that or I'm getting too much into micro-events. (Gimli kills his first orc at Helm's Deep; Gimli kills his second orc at Helm's Deep...) Don't forget: Gimli notches his axe on the nineteenth orc in the Battle of Helm's Deep... - Barbara -- sorry, couldn't resist...

 

Hi Liz, I finished looking at the current draft of your Gondorian bio, and think it looks great. The changes you made worked very well. I have a lot of comments, approximately 98% of which are "you could add a link to this word or phrase if you chose", so I'll send them to you via email. Very nice work! - Barbara Edit: Actually, I think I made a mistake, but didn't send myself a copy to be sure: In the paragraph beginning "The chief city of this southern realm was Osgiliath", IIRC I suggested linking 'towers' to Tower of the Moon, but what I meant was the Tower of the Stone of Osgiliath. Sorry, got my tower names mixed up...

 

Rounding up several posts here (How is it that I have 80 sub-events for Saruman's Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan, and you, in one post, managed to come up with two more that I didn't think of?) *snork* But it's that "different perspectives" thing, isn't it? Actually, in the Hunt for the Ring stuff (which I am not going to do anytime soon...), I'd like to include the quote about how Saruman's agents were able to misdirect the Nazgûl for a while... that was on the east of the Misty Mtns, but Saruman's making alliances in general fits into that indirectly... as well as setting up trade with the Shire -- he had agents there and in Bree, too (until the Nazgûl found them, that is Terror is such a useful political tool...) Yep, that 's all good stuff. Don't forget: Gimli notches his axe on the nineteenth orc in the Battle of Helm's Deep... And: Legolas gropes for spent arrows... I have a lot of comments, approximately 98% of which are "you could add a link to this word or phrase if you chose", so I'll send them to you via email. I got the e-mail, thanks, but still need to work through it. Cheers, Liz

 

• Forums Home
• 1 Month of Posts
• FAQs

Forum Conferences

• Challenges
• General
• Members
• Resources
• Stories

A conference is a collection of forums.

Intended for: General Audience

This forum is open to all HASA members. It is read-only for the general public.

Membership on HASA is free and it takes only a few minutes to join. If you would like to participate, please click here.

If you are already a member, please log in to participate.

« Back to Reference Library - entries, requests, etc.

• Citations for Tolkien's writings
• Maiar, The
• Valar, The