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Discussing: Rohirric souces?

Rohirric souces?

I'm working on Gúthwinë and Herugrim and wondering about trustworthy sources for old English. For Gúthwinë I found it in the Bosworth-Toller Anglo-Saxon dictionary. For Herugrim I'm not sure what to trust. Oh, Language people - recommendations, I pray you? Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Rohirric souces?

Hi Lyllyn I think it is in Bosworth-Toller, but it's maybe an example of where Tolkien has slightly simplified the Anglo-Saxon spelling: "heoru-grim" means "very fierce, cruel or savage". See this scanned image. (It's a TIFF file.) By the way, the link to Bosworth-Toller given in the URL library seems pretty unreliable. I know I've accessed it in the past, but it wouldn't work at all this morning. You may want to consider replacing or supplementing it with another version I found which includes both scanned versions of each page and the text OCRd. They seem to still be in the process of cleaning up the OCR text, but the scans mean you can always check the original. I also found this site much easier to use than the version in the URL library (which I found rather slow and awkward). Hope that helps. Cheers, Liz [Edit: to get the links working properly!] Edits again to say: having looked around the site some more from the home page this should definitely be in the URL library, as it includes sections on Gothic and Norse dictionaries and grammars as well.

 

 

Re: Rohirric souces?

By the way, the link to Bosworth-Toller given in the URL library seems pretty unreliable. I know I've accessed it in the past, but it wouldn't work at all this morning. You may want to consider replacing or supplementing it with another version I found which includes both scanned versions of each page and the text OCRd. They seem to still be in the process of cleaning up the OCR text, but the scans mean you can always check the original. I also found this site much easier to use than the version in the URL library (which I found rather slow and awkward). That's a much better link, thanks! (I've forwarded it to Ithilwen as well.) As someone who isn't good with languages, without a trusted source telling me "heru" is from "heoru" I wouldn't know if the derivation is valid. So, Liz, what about "grim"? B-T lists it as "fierce" "bitter" or "sharp". Somewhere (can't remember where) I read that this was a linguistic joke: his sword was named "fierce fierce". Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Rohirric souces?

Hi Lyllyn As someone who isn't good with languages, without a trusted source telling me "heru" is from "heoru" I wouldn't know if the derivation is valid. So, Liz, what about "grim"? B-T lists it as "fierce" "bitter" or "sharp". I'm not a linguistic expert either but... If you look at the scan I linked to above under the entry for "heoru" it says "O. Sax heru (in compounds only)" (it's very near the top of the second column). Bearing in mind Herugrim is an "ancient blade" (as perhaps Guthwine is not), it would have been named in the past. So this is probably Tolkien being linguistically very subtle (as he no doubt would have been): I think he has maybe used a form from Old Saxon that would have the same relation to 9th or 10th century Anglo-Saxon (when most of the Anglo-Saxon texts we have are from, I think) as the Rohirric of Eorl's time would have to the Rohirric of Theoden's time. In other words, "heoru-grim" in 9th century Anglo-Saxon would have been "herugrim" in 5th century Old Saxon. Somewhere (can't remember where) I read that this was a linguistic joke: his sword was named "fierce fierce". Given the compound "heoru-grim" listed half way down the page is translated as "very fierce" and given that in other compounds involving "heoru", it seems to be used as an intensifier of the other half of the compound (and a sword is, after all, a sharp thing!), I think that it's entirely possible it is a joke. Of course, you could just read it as (heoru/heru) sword — (grim)sharp/fierce. Or "fierce sword" or "sharp sword"? Cheers, Liz

 

 

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