Forum: Prospective Challenges

Discussing: Namesakes

Namesakes

I edited this so that it would not be such a narrowed challenge. In the Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings, and many other Tolkien books, many names do not refer to just a single person, but to many. It seems as though some of these names were associated with misfortune, while others were just every-day, happy names. For example, Miriel, Feanor's mother, died during childbirth. Several hundred years later, Miriel, the queen of Numenor, died when her country sank beneath the sea. Findulius of the first age was killed by orcs, and Boromir and Faramir's mother, Findilius, also passed away. Not all names were unhappy ones, though. Like many people in this thread pointed out, the dwarves and hobbits used names over again, and many of these names were not sad at all. For this challenge, you would write a story that has to do with an original or canonical character, and their namesake. The stories can be happy, sad, angsty, or whatever you feel like writing. They just have to involve a character and the person that they are named after. Also, like Meril pointed out, there were some characters that had similar names to another person, like Elboron and Boromir. Meril posted several examples of Tolkien characters and their namesakes. Here are some of them: Miriel, Feanor's wife, and Miriel, last queen of Numenor. -Morwen Eledhwen (First Age) and Morwen Steelsheen (Thengel of Rohan's wife, Third Age) -Finduilas of Nargothrond and Finduilas of Gondor. -Turin Turambar and his 3 Gondorian namesakes (Turambar, Turin I, Turin II) -The stewards often named their children after heroes of the First Age (ie Denethor, Boromir, Ecthelion, Egalmoth) -Hobbits often repeated names. -Dwarves had all the Durins (I-VII, I believe) -Sam/Rosie's kids Frodo, Rose, Merry, Pippin, Hamfast, Daisy, and Bilbo were all named after someone. -Pippin/Diamond's first son was named Faramir I. -Elboron, Faramir's son, was named for Boromir. -Barahir, Faramir's grandson, was named for Beren's father of the First Age. -Create an OC that is named after someone.

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Yes, just think about the potential angst for anyone named Gelmir. *shudder* So I gather that the idea is to have someone with an "ill name" meet with an ill end, and have that somehow related to the name s/he bears? Or is it more to discuss, within the framework of M-e, the superstitions that might attach to giving a child a name with a sad story behind it?

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Hi Rainsong, I've been thinking about this potential challenge, and it's interesting. But one thing that occurred to me is that if you're limiting it to unhappy names, you're restricting it a fair bit. How would you feel about expanding the challenge idea? We know a lot about the Elven history through The Silmarillion, so there's a lot of potential for a TA elf (or a Dunedain, who might have taken an Elf's name) to share his or her name with an unfortunate elf. But we just don't know as much about the other races' history. Would it maybe be a good idea to expand the challenge idea so it doesn't just refer to unhappy namesakes? The Dwarves had all those Durins. And hobbits also reused names (Frodo Gardner, Faramir Took, and all those Tooks with numbers after their names, i.e., Isumbras II). This is just food for thought. You may want to keep your challenge more narrowly focused, and that's fine. But if you would like to open it up to more races, you might want to think about this. Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Very intriguing idea. Faramir and Denethor sprang to mind quite unbidden. ;-) Just an idea to spin off yours - it's possible for an "ill" name to lose its unhappy history. Faramir Took for example, was given a pretty ill-starred name (Faramir the king's son who ran off to war, and our own ranger who had personal tragedies of his own), but from what little we know, he didn't come to a bad end at all. It could be interesting if you expand your idea to ill names made good. Just something to chew on. OT, In RL, no English king has been named "Richard" since the incident at Bosworth... hmm... I wonder why. ;-) cheers, nrink

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Sure. It doens't have to be an .unhappy,. name.

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Would anyone be interested in attempting this challenge? I'd be willing to try it. I'm trying to get more used to writing about elves and other main characters, so this would probably be a good chance for me to do so.

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Hi, If you're still looking for people to bite, putting it up on the HA Yahoo list might be a good idea if you haven't already done that. There are lots of writers on list and you might just find 5 who may be interested. If you're doing that, you could stick a link in to this forum for further discussion, refinement of ideas etc if necessary. cheers nrink

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Hm....actually, I think I might my bite (so, one down, four to go. ) Woo! My first challenge. Question, though, did the character have to be named with the namesake in mind? Or may it be two characters with the same name but no connection? Karri

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Yes, just think about the potential angst for anyone named Gelmir. *shudder* Indeed. *shiver* How angsty that one could get... But consider the infamously woeful Turin (Turambar) and his namesakes... All info taken from the Encyclopedia of Arda Turin Turambar The most tragic of Tolkien's heroes, Túrin, son of Húrin Thalion and cousin to Tuor, was in his time the most feared of Men by the servants of Morgoth. He did great service to both Doriath and Nargothrond, and is famed for slaying Glaurung, Father of Dragons, but the curse of Morgoth was on him, and evil followed him always. In the Forest of Brethil he came upon his own sister, but through the spells of Glaurung they did not know each other, and wed. After Nienor discovered the truth, she threw herself to her death, and in despair Túrin fell upon his own sword. Turambar (9th King of Gondor) The heir of King Rómendacil I, who succeeded to the throne of Gondor after the violent death of his father at the hands of the Easterlings. Turambar sought vengeance for his father's death, and succeeded brilliantly. We are told that he not only avenged the loss of Rómendacil, but carried his conquests into the lands of the Easterlings themselves, winning much new territory for his Kingdom. Due to his father's untimely loss, Turambar came early to Gondor's throne. His rule lasted longer than a century, and was the longer by far than that of any preceding Gondorian monarch since that of his ancestor Meneldil. Turambar ruled Gondor for one hundred and twenty-six years, and was succeeded by his son, who became Atanatar I. Turin I (6th Ruling Steward of Gondor) The sixth Ruling Steward of Gondor, who succeeded his father Húrin I to the Stewardship. Like his father, Túrin was named for a great hero of the First Age, and this seems to have become a trend in the House of the Stewards after his time. For five generations after Túrin, starting with his son Hador, his descendants were named for Elves or Men of the First Age. Túrin ruled Gondor during the time known as the Watchful Peace, during which Sauron had withdrawn into the east and did not trouble the western lands of Middle-earth. Hence, his time as Steward was rather uneventful in historical terms. Túrin ruled as Steward for thirty-four years, and was succeeded by his son Hador. Turin II (23rd Ruling Steward of Gondor) The twenty-third Ruling Steward of Gondor, the son of Thorondir, and great-grandfather of Denethor II. He is most famous for his defeat of an army of the Haradrim at the Crossings of Poros, with the aid of King Folcwine of Rohan. Though our tragic hero is cursed, all his namesakes seem to have led (eventful) but not overly tragic lives. Thoughts? Back, fanged beastie, back I say! ~Meril

 

 

Re: Ill Names

It could be two characters with the same name, or even a character who was intentionally named after a particular person. It's up to you, though. I'll bite, too. Anyone else?

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Indeed. *shiver* How angsty that one could get... But consider the infamously woeful Turin (Turambar) and his namesakes... All info taken from the Encyclopedia of Arda Turin Turambar The most tragic of Tolkien's heroes, Túrin, son of Húrin Thalion and cousin to Tuor, was in his time the most feared of Men by the servants of Morgoth. He did great service to both Doriath and Nargothrond, and is famed for slaying Glaurung, Father of Dragons, but the curse of Morgoth was on him, and evil followed him always. In the Forest of Brethil he came upon his own sister, but through the spells of Glaurung they did not know each other, and wed. After Nienor discovered the truth, she threw herself to her death, and in despair Túrin fell upon his own sword. Turambar (9th King of Gondor) The heir of King Rómendacil I, who succeeded to the throne of Gondor after the violent death of his father at the hands of the Easterlings. Turambar sought vengeance for his father's death, and succeeded brilliantly. We are told that he not only avenged the loss of Rómendacil, but carried his conquests into the lands of the Easterlings themselves, winning much new territory for his Kingdom. Due to his father's untimely loss, Turambar came early to Gondor's throne. His rule lasted longer than a century, and was the longer by far than that of any preceding Gondorian monarch since that of his ancestor Meneldil. Turambar ruled Gondor for one hundred and twenty-six years, and was succeeded by his son, who became Atanatar I. Turin I (6th Ruling Steward of Gondor) The sixth Ruling Steward of Gondor, who succeeded his father Húrin I to the Stewardship. Like his father, Túrin was named for a great hero of the First Age, and this seems to have become a trend in the House of the Stewards after his time. For five generations after Túrin, starting with his son Hador, his descendants were named for Elves or Men of the First Age. Túrin ruled Gondor during the time known as the Watchful Peace, during which Sauron had withdrawn into the east and did not trouble the western lands of Middle-earth. Hence, his time as Steward was rather uneventful in historical terms. Túrin ruled as Steward for thirty-four years, and was succeeded by his son Hador. Turin II (23rd Ruling Steward of Gondor) The twenty-third Ruling Steward of Gondor, the son of Thorondir, and great-grandfather of Denethor II. He is most famous for his defeat of an army of the Haradrim at the Crossings of Poros, with the aid of King Folcwine of Rohan. Though our tragic hero is cursed, all his namesakes seem to have led (eventful) but not overly tragic lives. Thoughts? Back, fanged beastie, back I say! ~Meril That's interesting. Turin lived a horrible life, but everyone named after him did not. It's almost like being named "Turin" gave a person the opposite effect.

 

 

Re: Ill Names

*resigned sigh* I'm beginning to suspect that the 2 closely-placed mosquito bites on my ankle are, in fact, fangmarks from a more fearsome beast. Count me in. My own musings on Turin and his namesakes are leading to story thoughts. Nothing soon, though: RL is hideously complicated at the moment. ~Meril

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Great! We've three now, anyone else up for it? I'd love to pitch in too, but I'm kind of living on challenge credit now. *sigh* Certainly won't rule out jumping in later though. nrink

 

 

Re: Ill Names

I'd love to pitch in too, but I'm kind of living on challenge credit now. You and me both!

 

 

Re: Ill Names

All right, I put a post up on the HA list, and a question posed there made me think: exact namesake, or general? The example was Elboron (Faramir's son) being named for Boromir. I think that it would be a better challenge with more options, so we could have just namesakes in general instead of exact names. -Same name (ie Finduilas of Nargothrond and Finduilas of Gondor) -Similar names (ie Boromir and Elboron) I'm going to sleep now; maybe I'll post in the morning when my thoughts are more coherant. ~Meril

 

 

Re: Ill Names

Edited because I realized I should have read the original post more than once before posting!

 

 

Re: Namesakes

I'll jump in too, provided there's a generous deadline? I was thinking of Beren and someone who's named after him... cheers, Maya

 

 

Re: Namesakes

Oh heck it. I'll jump on too, if there's a long, long deadline. I've suddenly been struck by a story idea for Morwen Steelsheen and Morwen Eledhwen and a vision of Eowyn is flitting about somewhere. How, where, what and why I don't know yet. May I shamelessly suggest a year? ;-) If that's okay, you can count me in for this one. nrink (resolving to slink off, put on some nuzgul proof armour and swear off all future nuzgul... for the time being)

 

 

Re: Namesakes

OK, I think that we are on the right track here. I'm responding to several posts here, so bear with me. Jacks wrote: Edited because I realized I should have read the original post more than once before posting! No, IMHO, I think that this is an excellent idea. It gives people more freedom with who they can choose. Maya wrote: I'll jump in too, provided there's a generous deadline? I was thinking of Beren and someone who's named after him... Excellent! Nice idea about Beren, too: much possible pondering available for that namesake... nrink wrote: Oh heck it. I'll jump on too, if there's a long, long deadline. I've suddenly been struck by a story idea for Morwen Steelsheen and Morwen Eledhwen and a vision of Eowyn is flitting about somewhere. How, where, what and why I don't know yet. May I shamelessly suggest a year? ;-) If that's okay, you can count me in for this one. nrink (resolving to slink off, put on some nuzgul proof armour and swear off all future nuzgul... for the time being) And exactly how long does "for the time being" entail, nrink? Until the next one bites? I think the only way to be nuzgul proof is to swear off this site and list! I think that a long deadline sounds attractive to everyone. All right, so that's... me, Maya, nrink, Cold Like Fire, and Karri, right? Yes! We have five! Collected musings on examples: -Miriel, Feanor's wife, and Miriel, last queen of Numenor. -Morwen Eledhwen (First Age) and Morwen Steelsheen (Thengel of Rohan's wife, Third Age) -Finduilas of Nargothrond and Finduilas of Gondor. -Turin Turambar and his 3 Gondorian namesakes (Turambar, Turin I, Turin II) -The stewards often named their children after heroes of the First Age (ie Denethor, Boromir, Ecthelion, Egalmoth) -Hobbits often repeated names. -Dwarves had all the Durins (I-VII, I believe) -Sam/Rosie's kids Frodo, Rose, Merry, Pippin, Hamfast, Daisy, and Bilbo were all named after someone. -Pippin/Diamond's first son was named Faramir I. -I'd hazard a guess that some of Merry/Estella's children were named after friends from the WotR, as well. -I read that Elanor (Sam's daughter) named one of her daughters Firiel. Firiel was the name of Arvedui Last-king's wife, and she was the daughter of Ondoher, King Gondor. -Elboron, Faramir's son, was named for Boromir. -Barahir, Faramir's grandson, was named for Beren's father of the First Age. -Create an OC that is named after someone. Well, I'm sure there are more that aren't listed. If anyone's got more, toss the idea out and I'll try and keep track and add them to this list. How should this one be worded? Should it be just someone musing on their namesake? ~Meril I never knew how much fun setting up a challenge could be...

 

 

Re: Namesakes

Meril, I see you've discovered the joys of nuzgul flinging. It's an impressive collection of names you've got there & certainly very inspiring! Cold Like Fire, are you happy with the present wording of the almost-challenge we have here? I'd suggest selecting 3 or 4 of Meril's examples and adding them to your challenge text by tacking to the last paragraph: "Some famous namesakes include...[w], [x], [y] and [z]" I think we could amass a full list of names though, and keep them in a separate post (and editting it as and when new namesakes come up) so that the actual challenge text won't be too long. What do you all think? Otherwise, it seems that we're nearly there... And exactly how long does "for the time being" entail, nrink? Until the next one bites? I think the only way to be nuzgul proof is to swear off this site and list! Evidently not very long. ;-) Heh. Swearing off this site & list isn't an option I'm afraid. I'm too much of a junkie already. cheers nrink

 

 

Re: Namesakes

All right, I put a post up on the HA list, and a question posed there made me think: exact namesake, or general? The example was Elboron (Faramir's son) being named for Boromir. I think that it would be a better challenge with more options, so we could have just namesakes in general instead of exact names. -Same name (ie Finduilas of Nargothrond and Finduilas of Gondor) -Similar names (ie Boromir and Elboron) I'm going to sleep now; maybe I'll post in the morning when my thoughts are more coherant. ~Meril That's a good idea. I'll edit that into my first post now, along with what you suggested, nrink nrink. It looks like we've got five people now.

 

 

Re: Namesakes

nrink wrote: Meril, I see you've discovered the joys of nuzgul flinging. *devious laugh* Indeed, I have. It's much more fun than work, at any rate. I think a full list of names would be a good idea for a seperate post. I can keep track of them there, or just post a new one. Swearing off this site & list isn't an option I'm afraid. I'm too much of a junkie already. LOL! Same here: I only joined four months ago, and I'm addicted! ~Meril

 

 

Re: Namesakes

I wrote that I'd keep track of the names, but I see Cold Like Fire is a step (a post?) ahead of me! Disregard my offer. ~Meril

 

 

Re: Namesakes

Huzzah, CLF (may I call you "Cliff"? ), you and your co-writers have bred yourselves a challenge! I've set up a thread in Challenges: Story Discussions for those who want to use it to promote stories, promote the challenge, continue the genealogical lists, or discuss the woes and/or joys of working out your story. TTFN, Dwim

 

 

Re: Namesakes

Here are a couple: Exact: Legolas of Gondolin, Legolas of the Fellowship Aragorn I, chief of the Dunedain, and Aragorn of the Fellowship Arathorn I and Arathorn II Mablung of Doriath, Mablung of Ithilien Similar: Elu Thingol, and his grandsons (Elured, Elurin) Karri

 

 

Re: Namesakes

Huzzah, CLF (may I call you "Cliff"? ), you and your co-writers have bred yourselves a challenge! I've set up a thread in Challenges: Story Discussions for those who want to use it to promote stories, promote the challenge, continue the genealogical lists, or discuss the woes and/or joys of working out your story. TTFN, Dwim You can call me Cliff.

 

 

Re: Namesakes

Hmmm. I know of some other repeated names, think I might try and bite onto this challenge since the idea has been floating around for me for a while now. I also think it's interesting the names of Rumil of Tirion and Rumil the march-warden, they are similar except by pronounciation (which does keep them separate since Tolkien was very distinct about that pronounciation it looks like.) It might be interesting Rumil's mother's point of view when deciding on a name for him, perhaps she saw he would one day write down the works of Silvan linguistic nature and be a great student of its study ;) However the best translation I can come up with for the name Rumil in Sindarin is that it means something along the lines of 'loud love' . Of course, this goes into a long drawn out essay I want to write about the names of elves found in Fellowship of the Ring... *eyedart* Ramlatch

 

 

In Forums

Discussion Info

Intended for: General Audience

This forum is open to all HASA members. It is read-only for the general public.

Membership on HASA is free and it takes only a few minutes to join. If you would like to participate, please click here.

If you are already a member, please log in to participate.

« Back to Prospective Challenges