Forum: Hands of the King

Discussing: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Ch. 21 - Desiring

Desiring Finduilas POV Finduilas resists the urge to whap several people upside the head, no matter how much they deserve it. Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

I was just going to post a comment, earlier today, being mournful about no updates, and restrained myself. See my restraint! Of course there are forty other things I should be doing. ^.^ ‘This is the worst possibility, to try to shame Denethor by promoting Thorongil. It will set them at odds and pushes Thorongil to the that woman’s faction. We cannot allow this to happen.’ "the that woman" Didn't see any more typos. AUUUGGHHHHHHH such TEASING. You will drive me MAD.

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

I was just going to post a comment, earlier today, being mournful about no updates, and restrained myself. See my restraint! Good things come to those who wait. Typo corrected. AUUUGGHHHHHHH such TEASING. You will drive me MAD. It gets worse...

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

It gets worse... It's bad enough as is! I liked the realization; now how long do we have to wait before she hits him on the head with it? I also admit to tremendous curiosity about The Lost, which has only been deepened by successive chapters. I hope you'll explain eventually... Please? BTW - I didn't see any other typos besides what Dragonlady spotted. Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

I liked the realization; now how long do we have to wait before she hits him on the head with it? At least until the next chapter. Maybe longer. Denethor is kind of difficult to talk to. I also admit to tremendous curiosity about The Lost, which has only been deepened by successive chapters. I hope you'll explain eventually... Please? They'll keep coming up, though you'll only ever know as much as Denethor and Finduilas know. The simple explanation is that they are the remnants of the Lost Kingdom of Arnor (hence "the Lost"), the descendents of the Dunedain left after the destruction of the northern kingdom. They would not rally to Earnur when he arrived shortly after the loss of Arvedui, as noted in the letter Denethor read to Finduilas, and have disappeared from historical records in Gondor, save for the few warriors who show up on the doorstep every so often, serve valiantly, and then disappear into the wild when their term of service is done. Denethor becomes increasingly curious about them as the story progresses, so you can count on him asking Thorongil some pointed questions. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

the simple explanation is that they are the remnants of the Lost Kingdom of Arnor (hence "the Lost"), the descendents of the Dunedain left after the destruction of the northern kingdom. I'm afraid that doesn't help much. Why are they disdainful of Aragorn? It could be a deliberate pose to protect him from discovery, but from the way you've written it I'd say 'no'. Presuming that Halmir initially thought Finduilas was Arwen, why would he react so negatively to Arwen? Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Why are they [the Lost] disdainful of Aragorn? It could be a deliberate pose to protect him from discovery, but from the way you've written it I'd say 'no'. Presuming that Halmir initially thought Finduilas was Arwen, why would he react so negatively to Arwen? If I told you what was up, it would spoil the story, now, wouldn't it? Part of your curiosity can't be answered within the scope of this story, but you've hit on some of it - that the Lost wish to protect him. Listen to Halmir. He's the one who will tell you the most, but his language is always in code. When we next get back to Denethor's POV, there will be more about the Lost. Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Loved it - great chapter. I was grateful that the two sisters had declared a semi 'truce.' I was grateful that Fin put her hand in Denethor's arm -very nice, too long-awaited. I was glad that Fin was allowed to join her parents in the discussion of the meeting in the Citadel. I was most sad over Denethor's despair. And most glad that Fin was there for him, unbeknownst to him. I truly hope that changes - and quickly - though you must follow what your heart tells you. Thank you! Agape

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

> It gets worse... ‘[...] I have some plans where that man is concerned.’ ‘What are they, Father?’ Adrahil laughed though he would not look Finduilas in the eye. ‘You will see.’ :sigh: Yes, it does get a whole lot worse, doesn't it.

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Oop. One last typo. >‘So, how have you failed? I see the fault to with the Steward for acting intemperately.’ to be with, to lie with-- verb missing. do you have any idea how hard it is to type without making any noise? : i'm reading b/c it's quieter than writing but the typo patrol must go on!

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Yes, it does get a whole lot worse, doesn't it. Yup. The whole thing is sort of a long, down-hill slide interrupted by moments of false hope. Fixed the other typo you caught - thanks! I have three more Finduilas POV chapters to post, then the story reaches a natural break and I'll go back and clean up the errors people have tracked down, no doubt introducing more in the process. ;-) Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Post a new chapter soon!! I'm dying here. ‘Why are you so determined to make me out a liar? Is Father going off to battle of so little import to you that you need think up things to make me more wretched? I did not get to say farewell! Oh, how I wish I had not been gone!’ I don't know if you meant importance or not, but that the only thing I ran across. *sigh* Denethor is such a bonehead!

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

I was grateful that Fin put her hand in Denethor's arm -very nice, too long-awaited. He needed someone to do that and break his isolation. Denethor would not presume (or dare) to touch her first, not is his current state. I was most sad over Denethor's despair. And most glad that Fin was there for him, unbeknownst to him. I truly hope that changes - and quickly - though you must follow what your heart tells you. She has been there for him all along, since the day they met, though only now do they begin to understand. Denethor will become less despairing very quickly, mostly because he is near her once more, but a complete turn-around in his attitude will take time. And some determined action by Finduilas. Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Post a new chapter soon!! I'm dying here. Heh-heh. Another two weeks or so. My writing goes slowly. I did mean to use the work "import" not "importance". And, yes, Denethor is a bonehead. Some people really do need to be hit with a two-by-four before they get a clue. Finduilas is more than up to the job, as you shall see. Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

"yes, Denethor is a bonehead. Some people really do need to be hit with a two-by-four before they get a clue. Finduilas is more than up to the job, as you shall see." *snickers* Am I evil for being amused by that?

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

Oh, don't we just love to witness how much of a bonehead dear Denethor can be? Still, I can hardly wait for the big moment when the truth hits him like a ton of bricks. Denethor is fearless to the point of recklessness sometimes. He will do things with no regard for common sense if he believes it will work. To my mind, Adrahil nailed down the character of his future son-in-law very nicely (including the increasing use of the Seeing Stone). It's somewhat odd to see this kind of behaviour from someone who's usually so given to ratio and self-discipline. Perhaps it isn't only due to his stubbornness and pride, but also to the fact that he's a rather unbalanced personality when it comes to dealing with emotions.

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

When Denethor finally realizes the truth, heh-heh. Have fun watching his head explode. That's half the fun of the story - seeing this incredibly smart, over-controlling guy be side-swiped every few minutes by Finduilas. He should just surrender now, since resistence is futile... "Denethor is fearless to the point of recklessness sometimes. He will do things with no regard for common sense if he believes it will work." To my mind, Adrahil nailed down the character of his future son-in-law very nicely (including the increasing use of the Seeing Stone). It's somewhat odd to see this kind of behaviour from someone who's usually so given to ratio and self-discipline. Perhaps it isn't only due to his stubbornness and pride, but also to the fact that he's a rather unbalanced personality when it comes to dealing with emotions. This is one of the points where I disagree with the standard fanonical convention of Denethor as rigid, non-spontaneous, cold fish type. In one place, Tolkien describes Denethor as "dauntless" which indicates to me that he forges ahead into trouble. Then, I think about his sons, who are going to have inherited/learned much of their behavior from their father. Think about Boromir, whose response to seeing a balrog is to blow a challenge to the monster on the horm of Gondor. Or Faramir, who can hold his men together even when under attack by Nazgul. I'm sure others can come up more examples of dauntlessness in the sons. But what about Denethor? First, I think that the older man we see in LotR has had forty more years of practice at reining in his impulses than the one here in HotK. The impulses are still there, but under more control. I also think that many of his "impulsive" acts have deep roots, and are not always responses to what others think is happening - such as defiance of Ecthelion's command to return to the City. Denethor tends to see little middle ground. Either he will untangle the Gordian Knot one thread at a time, or he'll hack it in two. I think that he is extremely rational with non-personal problems, as exemplified by his ability to command wide-flung battles or to engineer the new bridge in Osgilaith. The decision to kill Mumakil with an arrow to an eye is also rational - they are huge, they can be killed only by a shot to the eye, that takes a superior archer, I am the best archer in Gondor: ergo, I should bring them down. In emotional situations, his tendency is to suppress his feelings and rationalize his actions. Since they *are* emotional, this habit keeps biting him in the rear. That he doesn't show emotion very easily doesn't mean it isn't there. When you do see it, that's because it is so powerful it can no longer be kept under wraps. There's also his experimental streak. He's a geek and likes to do shit just to see if it can be done. If he lived in modern times, he'd be a formidible computer programmer - probably able to hack into anything. And he'd do extreme sports, the more dangerous, the better. He developed Dragon Fire as much to see if it *could* be done as to make a usable weapon. Again, we see these tendencies in both Faramir and Boromir, though they express the impulse in different ways. What he lacks that both of them have is trust in the people and the world around him. Ironically, it is probably this lack of approval and support in his own life that makes him determined to give it to his own children, which allows them to face their trials so well. Even if Boromir did succumb to the Ring in the end, so did Frodo, after all. I think that Faramir may have been stronger for having had *enough* friction with Denethor to build up his sense of self-reliance without so much that he became resentful and oppositional to his father's authority. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

When Denethor finally realizes the truth, heh-heh. Have fun watching his head explode. *bounces in anticipation of the event* This is one of the points where I disagree with the standard fanonical convention of Denethor as rigid, non-spontaneous, cold fish type. You'll get no argument from me there! Just like you, I definitely see him as someone given to extremes. Which is both frightening and fascinating. In one place, Tolkien describes Denethor as "dauntless" Do you happen to remember where that is? Then, I think about his sons Actually, they instantly came to mind when reading Adrahil's statement. The decision to kill Mumakil with an arrow to an eye is also rational. From a certain point of view. I assume I know what you mean, but to my mind, the logic gets somewhat messed up by his pride. Denethor seems to have the ability to block any valid counter arguments if he believes he's right. Your example of killing the mumakil reminds me very much of his choosing to commit suicide and killing Faramir as well because both actions have the same attitude behind them. If he lived in modern times, he'd be a formidible computer programmer - probably able to hack into anything. And he'd do extreme sports, the more dangerous, the better. He developed Dragon Fire as much to see if it *could* be done as to make a usable weapon. I can very well see him as the obsessed scientiest who blows up the laboratory! What he lacks that both of them have is trust in the people and the world around him. It might exactly be this need to rely on himself which fuels his pride, thus contributing a lot to his downfall. Astara, who just loves looking into Denethor's head

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

I looked through my posts because I *know* I typed out the entire quote in another forum post, but now I can't find it. In UT, "The Palantiri" , JRRT speaks a great deal about Denethor - why he looked into the stone, why he could use it and Saruman could not, and expands generally on the character. There are almost four pages of information that deal directly with Denethor. The exact quote is: "Denethor succeeded to the Stewardship in 2984, being then fifty-four years old: a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong-willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. " Later in the essay, JRRT wirtes "He was proud, but this was by no means only personal: he loved Gondor and its people and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time." From a certain point of view. I assume I know what you mean, but to my mind, the logic gets somewhat messed up by his pride. Denethor seems to have the ability to block any valid counter arguments if he believes he's right. Your example of killing the mumakil reminds me very much of his choosing to commit suicide and killing Faramir as well because both actions have the same attitude behind them. A *rational* decision, but not thereby a *reasonable* one, remember. Luinil got it right - he should have sent others to do this once he'd figured it out. It is precisely that last error that leads Denethor into most of his greatest troubles. Just because he came up with the idea and knows he can do the deed, it does not then follow that a) you are the only one who can do it and b) that you are going to be the best at it. OTOH, there is something in him that drives him to be the best, and it is "not just pride". There is (as is true of most high-achievers) a sense that anything less than perfection is failure. You could see this in his talk with Finduilas where she has to give him a good thwap for the self-pity. He paints himself into these logical corners and then broods and frets and turns himself into a basket case. This is the foundation of the personality that will, when there is no gentle voice of love and loyalty to bring him out of the dark thoughts, will lead him to destroy himself. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 21 - Desiring

A *rational* decision, but not thereby a *reasonable* one, remember. Indeed! I tend to equate the two, which in this case just doesn't work.

 

 

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