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Discussing: karma-kundo?

karma-kundo?

I'm looking for this term, karma-kundo, which I vaguely remember seeing; mentioned as being Tolkien's adunaic term for a political regent in Numenor.   Anyone have some specific information on it?

RAKSHA

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

Hi Raksha,

Sorry, but I looked in my History of Middle-earth Index, and did not find the term. And, I did not find it in Unfinished Tales either, which has at least some political stuff about Númenor.

I hope that someone can help you who has much more language grounding than I... I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to specifics of Tolkien's languages.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

Found it It's mentioned in HoME 12 (pg. 260 in my edition, and it's Quenya and Gondor rather than Numenor)

Narmakil (9) and  Kalmakil  were  like their  father Atanatar  lovers of ease;  but  Minalkar  elder  son  of Kalmakil  was a  man of  great force after   the  manner   of  his   great-grandsire  Hyarmendakil,   whom  he revered. Already at the end of  Atanatar's reign  his voice  was listened to  in  the  councils  of  the realm;  and in  1240 Narmakil,  wishing to be relieved  of cares  of state,  gave him  the new  office and  title of Karma-kundo  'Helm-guardian',  that   is  in   terms  of   Gondor  Crown-lieutenant  or  Regent.  Thereafter  he  was  virtually  king,  though he acted  in  the  names  of  Narmakil  and  Kalmakil,  save  in  matters of war  and  defence  over  which he  had complete  authority. His  reign is thus  usually  dated  from  1240,  though  he  was  not  crowned  in  the name  of  Romendakil  until  1304  after  the  death  of his  father. 

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

Barbara, thanx much for looking; and Nath, thanx for turning up the info! That's a great bit of info, especially since there was a need for the office, and Karma-kundo is such a nifty, though oddball, term. I'm beta-ing a friend's story, and thought the term would be perfect for a certain line, but of course wanted to use it correctly. Also, I may want to use it for something of mine someday.

RAKSHA

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

WOW - Nath! That is awesome!

May I use this in one of my AU tales? I know it's not 'exactly' yours - but you found it... I will mention where it is from (HoMe) and where I found it (Research by Nath at HASA).

I've got Denethor's sister as Regent after his untimely death and would love to go back and change it - using this title instead. But now the dilemma - I love Crown-lieutenant and I love Helm-guardian... which do I use?

Wow - Tolkien sure makes life fun, doesn't he?

Excellent job researching! Bless you!

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

Of course, use it! though you should probably standardise the spelling to Carma-cundo, since using c is more or less the norm in Quenya for the k-sound (and while Tolkien did use 'k' at times, published names/words all use 'c').

Which to use...  Crown-lieutenant or Helm-guardian. Why not use Crown-lieutenant when you refer to the rank itself and have someone make an observation about the literal meaning of the title (since high-ranking Gondorians will understand Quenya, but not speak it as such)

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

You're welcome; I enjoy this sort of thing way too much (and no, that is not an invitation to drag me into volunteering for Research *g* )

As I said to Agape, you should perhaps spell it 'Carma-cundo', though. 

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

You're welcome; I enjoy this sort of thing way too much (and no, that is not an invitation to drag me into volunteering for Research *g* )

*looks crestfallen*

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

I see exactly what you mean, for the names in the reference you use are all with the 'k' and in the copies of Tolkien that I have... these names all have 'c' instead.... So I will go with Carma-cundo....

And thanks for the gentle hint about use.... You rock!

 

 

Re: karma-kundo?

You're welcome; I enjoy this sort of thing way too much (and no, that is not an invitation to drag me into volunteering for Research *g* )

*looks crestfallen*

Awww...

Should I ever find myself with spare time...

 

 

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