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Discussing: Dunland

Dunland

Ok, questions about a very vague land! Does Dunland have its own language? I know they are less than fond of the Rohirrim (to put it mildly), but would they know some Rohirric, do you think? I had another question, but it has fled. Hmm....

 

 

Re: Dunland

Hi Edoraslass Dunland does indeed have its own language: ...in the hills of Dunland a remnant lingered of an older people, the former inhabitants of much of Gondor. These clung to their own languages... The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age Alien, too, or only remotely akin [to the Common Speech], was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. [...] Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their own speech and manners; a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim. Of their language nothing appears in this book, save the name Forgoil which they gave to the Rohirrim (meaning Strawheads, it is said). Dunland and Dunlending are the names that the Rohirrim gave to them, because they were swarthy and dark-haired; The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age: Of Men They would certainly know some Westron/Common Speech: But the Westron was used as a second language of intercourse by all those who still retained a speech of their own [...] Even among the Wild Men and the Dunlendings who shunned other folk there were some that could speak it, though brokenly. The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age And some Rohirrim knew the Dunlending language: '...there are many that cry in the Dunland tongue,' said Gamling. 'I know that tongue. It is an ancient speech of men, and once was spoken in many western valleys of the Mark....' The Two Towers, LoTR Book 3, Ch 7, Helm's Deep I'm not aware of any quotes that say specifically they would know Rohirric (all the interactions in the book could have been in Westron/Common Speech, I think), but it seems likely at least some living on the borders would know a little Rohirric. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Dunland

I have nothing to add, unfortunately, but will shamelessly pilfer the information collected in this thread for personal use Even among the Wild Men and the Dunlendings who shunned other folk there were some that could speak it, though brokenly. Well, that is going to make my maybe-some-day sequel to something as yet unfinished quite interesting...! Amanda.

 

 

Re: Dunland

I know they are less than fond of the Rohirrim (to put it mildly)... LOL, you can say that again! This is my favorite quote on that subject: "But under Brego [the son of Eorl] and Aldor the Dunlendings were rooted out again and driven away beyond the Isen, and the Fords of Isen were guarded. Thus the Rohirrim earned the hatred of the Dunlendings, which was not ap­peased until the return of the King, then far off in the future. Whenever the Rohirrim were weak or in trouble the Dunlendings renewed their attacks." Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Appendix I very much agree with Liz that, if the Dunlendings had to communicate with the Rohirrim, it would be in Westron (the Common Speech) -- and probably somewhat brokenly, on the Dunlending's side. We do know that there must have been some communication after the Battle of the Hornburg, when Erkenbrand showed mercy to the Dunlending prisoners; the narration indicates that they were amazed, so some among them must have understood his speech to them. A minor canon note: After checking all the texts, it appears that Tolkien unfortunately never used the term "Rohirric" to describe the Language of the Rohirrim. I was disappointed at that... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Dunland

I have nothing to add, unfortunately, but will shamelessly pilfer the information collected in this thread for personal use Oh, we Resources geeks just *love* it when people "shamelessly pilfer" canon to write their stories... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Dunland

I have nothing to add, unfortunately, but will shamelessly pilfer the information collected in this thread for personal use Would that be for the horribly political story in which I would make you make your favourite still-alive son of Gondor wrestle with dull stuff like taxes, land grants and border disputes? Btw, I turned all that nice information I gathered together into a Resource Library entry on Dunlendish. I'm sure there's probably more to be found in HoMe, but I really am trying to avoid that cute, fluffy languages nuzgul. Not very successfully, apparently. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Dunland

Cripes, y'all are all over this! I'm constantly in amazement at the research geeks! Yay for me! Thank you so much, everyone!

 

 

Re: Dunland

Well, no research to add, but it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for someone to learn the languae of their enemy with the purpose of insulting them in it... There are people like that in the world. They typically have too much time on their hands, but... ^_^ Berz.

 

 

Re: Dunland

Berz wrote: Well, no research to add, but it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for someone to learn the languae of their enemy with the purpose of insulting them in it... There are people like that in the world. They typically have too much time on their hands, but... So the fact that I tell my sister "Lasto lalaith nín, orch!"... Eep. I have to go. I have to find a friend to make sure I have a life. Allie

 

 

Re: Dunland

Would that be for the horribly political story in which I would make you make your favourite still-alive son of Gondor wrestle with dull stuff like taxes, land grants and border disputes? *whistles* Amanda.

 

 

Re: Dunland

Oh, NOW I remember what my other question was! How would anyone suggest going about structuring a Dunlendish (hee) name? Do we have any to go off of?

 

 

Re: Dunland

How would anyone suggest going about structuring a Dunlendish (hee) name? Do we have any to go off of? *Laments* We don't even know the name of the squint-eyed Southerner at Bree, though we do know that he is Dunlendish. We do know that the arrogant vassal whom Helm Hammerhand killed, Freca, and his son Wulf, were of mixed Rohirrim and Dunlendish blood... but, to me, their names are no more odd than the other names from the House of Eorl (Brego, Gram...). So I suspect that Freca and Wulf's names are not Dunlendish. Sorry, that's all I know of. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Dunland

Btw, I turned all that nice information I gathered together into a Resource Library entry on Dunlendish. Yay! Very nice, thank you, Liz! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Dunland

Hi EdorasLass While we don't know anything canonical, I can suggest a couple of avenues that may suggest the kind of names Dunlendings had. 1) The original language of Bree-men is, apparently, related to Dunlendish. "In the Dunland also the Dunlendings, a dwindling people, remnant of those who had dwelt in western Rohan before the coming of the Rohirrim, still clung to their own speech. [...] A similar and kindred language was probably once spoken in Bree" (The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 2, The Appendix on Languages: The Languages at the end of the Third Age). It's possible the remnants of this former language would be retained in the form of personal names — even if these have been translated to Common Speech — and we do know something about these names: "The Men of Bree seemed all to have rather botanical (and to the Shire-folk rather odd) names, like Rushlight, Goatleaf, Heathertoes, Appledore, Thistlewool and Ferny (not to mention Butterbur). " (The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 1, Ch 9, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony) 2) The Stoors also at one point spoke a form of Dunlendish: "Though the Stoors, especially the southern branch that long dwelt in the valley of the Loudwater, by Tharbad and on the borders of Dunland, appear to have acquired a language akin to Dunlandish, before they came north and adopted in their turn the Common Speech.])" (The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 2, The Appendix on Languages: The Languages at the end of the Third Age). So it's possible Hobbits from Stoor families may have names of the same form as Dunlendings. To help you identify Stoors (or Stoor names), I can tell you that the Stoors apparently lived mostly in the Eastfarthing: "The Hobbits of that quarter, the Eastfarthing, were rather large and heavy-legged, and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather. But they were well known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood, as indeed was shown by the down that many grew on their chins. No Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard. Indeed, the folk of the Marish, and of Buckland, east of the River, which they afterwards occupied, came for the most part later into the Shire up from south-away; and they still had many peculiar names and strange words not found elsewhere in the Shire." (The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Prologue, Concerning Hobbits) Also, Tolkien says in an earlier draft of Appendix F ("On Translation") : "Also the relation of, say, Welsh or British to English was somewhat similar to that of the older language of the Stoors and Bree-men to the Westron." (The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 2, The Appendix on Languages: Commentary) So you could have a justification for selecting Welsh or British names for Dunlendings. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Dunland

So you could have a justification for selecting Welsh or British names for Dunlendings. Like Liz, for example? - Barbara, whose middle name is Elizabeth...

 

 

Re: Dunland

One day, I will stop asking questions about the vaguely drawn lands, I mean it. On the plus side, it means I've got a lot of wiggle room! Thank you so much!

 

 

Re: Dunland

One day, I will stop asking questions about the vaguely drawn lands, I mean it. And deprive all us resource geeks of our pleasures? Not to mention prompting a new Research Library entry? How could you be so cruel to us? Glad the information helped Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Dunland

I take it back! I will continue to ask questions about places that have little more than a name! "What' s average annual rainfall in the area round the Sea of Rhun? And do they like backgammon?" Heeheee........

 

 

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