Forum: Research Questions

Discussing: Fall of Arnor - Beginning or End of TA 1974?

Fall of Arnor - Beginning or End of TA 1974?

This has got me slightly confused... I'm researching for my new super-sized obsession - a giant WiP about the fall of the North-Kingdom, and I can't seem to tell when exactly Angmar attacks. This could well just be a southern hemisphere problem as I'm not used to having winter split between two years - but it states in Appendix A (The Line of Elendil - North Kingdom) that Angmar attacked Fornost 'before winter ended'. Is the Winter of 1974 the one across 73/74 or 74/75? I take this as meaning that the attack occurred in Jan/Feb 1974 - and this seemed to be backed up by the statement, elsewhere in Appendix A (the section on the rulers of Gondor) that in 1973 messages came to Gondor warning that Angmar was preparing for a final attack. However, Arvedui drowns in March 1975, after hiding out in the dwarf mines "for a while" until his provisions ran out, then seeking refuge with the Lossoth. Also, Cirdan sends the ship to rescue Arvedui basically as soon as Aranarth reaches Lindon - and it is stated that most of the Dunedain (including Arvedui's sons) fled Fornost fairly early in the battle - drove most of the remaining Dunedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the King. But Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last..." Even though the ship sent by Cirdan took "many days, because of contrary winds" there seems to be most of a year missing! Either Arvedui spent longer than I thought with the Lossoth, and Aranarth takes half a year to remember that his father's missing; Cirdan's Elves take the best part of a year to travel a few hundred miles; Angmar waits a year before attacking - despite being about to strike in Autumn 73! So can anyone sort out the confusion? Lyllyn, O Keeper of Knowledge, what is the answer? :-) I guess I might have to write with a very flexible timescale between the Fall of Fornost and Arvedui's death... then again this fic is looking so huge that a year or two won't make much difference! Thanks for any help, comments etc anyone wants to share! Elcalion

 

 

Re: Fall of Arnor - Beginning or End of TA 1974?

Elcalion, this is an interesting question, and I hope I can justify your confidence in me. Even better if someone else can shed more light, it is certainly confusing! I take this as meaning that the attack occurred in Jan/Feb 1974 Agreed - Winter of 1974 means Jan and Feb of 1974. However, Arvedui drowns in March 1975, This is the confusing part. In Appendix A, The Realms In Exile, The Northern Line - Heirs of Isildur, his date of death is given as 1974. Yet Appendix B,The Tale of Years, says 1975. In Peoples of Middle-earth, the date of Arevedui's death is usually given as 1974; but in one instance, The Heirs of Elendil (p 195) he has both dates, with 1975 in parentheses. Generally Christopher Tolkien explains any contradictions and points out errors, but I can't find an explanation here. As for the warning coming in Autumn 1973, and the final blow over a year later, I can see that as reasonable. They could know he was preparing, gathering men and forging weapons way in advance. With continuing attacks and vigorous defense, the process could last a year or more. Putting all this together, I think the missing year is in the contradiction between the date given in Appendix A and the one given in Appendix B. Which might not help much. Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Fall of Arnor - Beginning or End of TA 1974?

Thanks so much for the reply - it may not seem like much, but I'm trying to keep as close to canon as possible to avoid being labeled AU as the fic will eventually be going deep into uncharted lands of Middle Earth! I think we may have just stumbled on yet another textual anomaly between different editions, as mine (Harper Collins Paperback Edition 1999) has 1975 in both Appendix A and B ! I just checked the e-text version of the Appendices that you sent me and it has 1974 in Appendix A, although the entry in Appendix B remains 1975. Which is a pity, as 1974 would seem to make more sense! I can't imagine Arvedui having enough supplies (or the Lossoth, either!) to last a whole year - given the urgency of his departure from the North Downs and indeed the lack of horses by the time he arrives at Forochel. And that's not even thinking about Aranarth and Cirdan taking most of a year to organise a rescue expedition... Maybe I should just write that section with a very fluid timeframe, so it covers both takes - nothing like covering all bases! :-) With regards to Resources, (in the Bio entry for Arvedui 1975 is given), which edition would take precedence, and would this justify a note in the Arvedui bio recognising the existence of the 1974 date? I would think that Appendix A was changed to agree with Appendix B in the new ('my') edition - although quite possibly (based on HoME) 1974 is the true date. Funny that Christopher Tolkien hasn't mentioned anything, indeed... Kind of off topic, but the Vanyar bio entry is coming along and I hope to have it ready soon... Thanks so much for the help! Elcalion

 

 

Re: Fall of Arnor - Beginning or End of TA 1974?

With regards to Resources, (in the Bio entry for Arvedui 1975 is given), which edition would take precedence, and would this justify a note in the Arvedui bio recognising the existence of the 1974 date? Yes, thanks for pointing it out! I'll add a note. My print version of LotR is from 1978, and has the App A 1974/ App B 1975 discrepancy, too.

 

 

In Forums

Discussion Info

Intended for: General Audience

This forum is open to all HASA members. It is read-only for the general public.

Membership on HASA is free and it takes only a few minutes to join. If you would like to participate, please click here.

If you are already a member, please log in to participate.

« Back to Research Questions

Stories linked to the forum