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Discussing: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Hi. Ok, first I’ll give you some detail as to why I’m asking this, as it may give a basis for answers! I’m writing a fic containing Glorfindel and an OC. It starts at the Battle of the Last Alliance, and that’s when- I’ve decided for this fic- Glorfindel was re-born. (And, yes, I am an advocate of the ‘One Glorfindel’ idea, as opposed to two.) What I want to know is; would Glorfindel have known Gil-galad? Either as a child or as an adult, before the Battle of the Last Alliance? Also, would it be OK to make ‘Fin, Gil-galad, etc speak Sindarin? It’d just be simpler to keep them all in the same language instead of skipping between Quenya and Sindarin. And, final question, what were the Houses of Gondolin? I know that there was the ‘House of the Fountain’, ‘the Heavenly Arch’, ‘the Golden Flower’ (Glorfindel’s!), ‘the Hammer of Wrath’, ‘the Tree’, ‘the Pillar’, ‘the Swallow, ‘the Wing’, ‘White Wing’ and ‘the Harp’, but how many were there? And what were they called? Any help would be much appreciated! Thank you! Shadowed Mind!

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Hi, Gil-Galad would have been born before Glorfindel's death, but as the residents of Goldolin rarely ventured forth and Gil-Galad lived very far away, I think it unlikely they would have met during the First Age. They might have met during the Second Age, after Glorfindel was re-embodied, but before the Last Alliance. It simply depends on when you have have him re-embodied (as far as I know, there is no specific information regarding when Glorfindel returned to M-e.) As for the languages, I would expect that Glorfindel, as all Noldor, would have been fluent in Sindarin. Sindarin was likely the spoken language of Gondolin (as Quenyan had been deemed the language of kin-slayers and Gondolin was a fairly even mix of Sindar and Noldor, I expect that Turgon, whether reluctantly or otherwise, accepted the ban.) As for the Houses...I have no clue. Sorry. Good luck! Karri

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

What I want to know is; would Glorfindel have known Gil-galad? Either as a child or as an adult, before the Battle of the Last Alliance? Tolkien wrote about this in "The Peoples of Middle Earth", Vol 12 of HoME, Last Writings, where it was suggested that Glorfindel returned in the Second Age, probably between 1200-1600. C. Tolkien wrote: "His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them." Here are a few places you might check: There is a Research article on Glorfindel in resources. I also highly recommend the essay The Wars of the Glorfindels by Michael Martinez I hope this helps! Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Well...thank you to both of you that replied...the answers were helpful. BUT they have led me onto a new/ some new questions... If, as Karri says, Gil-galad and Glorfindel wouldn't have known each other in 'Fin's first life, is it possible that Gil-galad would've heard about him- enough to recognise him when he meets the re-born Elf? You know, cuz he's the great Balrog-slayer an all...? Thanks again! S M.

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Sure, I would think that would be a possibility. No doubt there were endless songs sung about the deed, but even if they didn't included enough detail to recognize him, I would imagine the tales told filled in the rest. Also, golden hair was not extraordinarily common among elves of Middle-earth, so that alone might be enough when added to the songs, tales, and the general presence of Glorfindel. Karri

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Yeah...you're right. Thank you! This helps, a lot! I hopefully will be posting the fic soon, and I'll drop a line here when I do! Thanx again, SM

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Hi!!!! The prologue of the story is up! It's called 'I arad ó nín gurth', and its a beta story. PLEASE! Read it, review it, etc! Feedback is great, and I'm going to a)start a forum/discussion soon and b) post the first chapter soon! "Just because the Valar are good does not mean they are kind. For they are not." Thank you for the help- I may need more as the story continues! SM!

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Not sure whether you found this in other research articles or not, but in HoME Volume X in one of the later chapters, Tolkien rejects the idea that Elves are "reborn" and apparently decided they were "re-embodied." He wrote that their feas retain a memory of their body and thus Mandos can somehow create a new body just like the one that was destroyed. Tolkien originally thought that they would be reborn, and then later realized that that was (a) weird since essentially the parents would be having someone else's child (like Mandos creating a new body out some kind of DNA imprint in the fea isn't, but okay) and (b) made no sense since someone born of one set of parents will have different life experiences and become a different person. I think it was said somewhere that Glorfindel returned to M-e on one of the Numenorean ships, which means it had to be before the destruction of Numenor and the removal of Aman from the Circles of the World since there were not many Numenorean ships sailing around after that. I don't know for sure if he associated with Gil-galad, but since there were so few Noldor left at that point, I imagine he did. Everyone spoke Sindarin, since Quenya had been banned in M-e for a very very long time and was only used in song and by Noldorin lords amongst themselves. As someone else said, they spoke it more in Gondolin, which was isolated, but I'm pretty sure the Gondolodrim spoke Sindarin fluently. Honestly, how much Quenya could guys like Hurin and Tuor have known, yet they got by fine in Gondolin.

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Yep, I think you've got the houses right, but here's a list just for clarity, plus descriptive quotes from the Book of Lost Tales 2 (p. 173-175). There are twelve houses of Gondolin, including Tuor's. House Name - Head of House other info King's house - Turgon "Mighty was the array of the house of the King and their colors were white and gold and red, and their emblems the moon and the sun and the scarlet heart." Fountain - Ecthelion "There came from the south of the city the people of the Fountain, and Ecthelion was their lord, and silver and diamonds were their delight; and swords very long and bright and pale did they wield, and they went into battle to the music of flutes." Heavenly Arch - Egalmoth "But they of the Heavenly Arch being a folk of uncounted wealth were arrayed in a glory of colors, and their arms were set with jewels that flamed in the light now over the sky. Every shield of that battalion was of the blue of the heavens and its boss a jewel built of seven gems... but an opal of great size was set in their helms. Egalmoth was their chieftain, and wore a blue mantle upon which the stars were broidered in crystal, and his sword was [curved]..." Golden Flower - Glorfindel "There stood the house of the Golden Flower who bared a rayed sun upon their shield, and their chief Glorfindel bare a mantel so broidered in threads of gold that it was [covered] with celandine as a field in spring; and his arms were [inlaid] with cunning gold." Hammer of Wrath - Rog(?) "Now the last of the battalions was furnished by the folk of the Hammer of Wrath, and of these came the best smiths and craftsmen...reverenced Aulë...fought with maces...shields were heavy...sign of this people was the Stricken Anvil, and a hammer that smiteth sparks about it was set on their shield, and red gold and black iron was their delight." Tree - Galdor "There were those of the house of the Tree, and they were a great house, and their raiment was green. They fought with iron-studded clubs or with slings, and their lord Galdor was held the most valiant of all the [Gondolindrim] save Turgon alone." Pillar - Penlod "There too were the folk of the Pillar and of the Tower of Snow, and both these kindreds were marshaled by Penlod, tallest of the [Noldor]." Tower of Snow - Penlod Swallow - Duilin "Now the folk of the Swallow bore a fan of feathers on their helms, and they were arrayed in white and dark blue and in purple and black and showed an arrowhead on their shields. Their lord was Duilin, swiftest of all men to run and leap and surest of archers at a mark." Harp - Salgant "Behind [the Fountain] came the host of the Harp, and this was a battalion of brave warriors; but their leader Salgant was a craven, and he fawned upon [Maeglin]. They were [arrayed] with tassels of silver and tassels of gold, and harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon and field of black; but Salgant bore one of gold, and he alone rode into battle of all the sons of the [Gondolindrim]…” Mole - Maeglin "But the folk of [Maeglin] were drawn up in the same place, and sable was their harness, and they bore no sign or emblem, but their round caps of steel were covered with moleskin, and they fought with axes two-headed like mattocks." Wing - Tuor "Now in the midmost of these stood Tuor above all heads, and his mail of silver gleamed; and about him was a press of the stoutest of the folk. Lo! all these wore wings as it were of swans or gulls upon their helms, and the emblem of the White Wing was upon their shields." Hope this helps! ~Meril

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Hi! I'm so sorry it took me so long to reply to you all, but I've been away- and then some stuff happened! ANYWAY! Thank you to Meril and Gypsum for your comments! I...have now decided all the final details about my way of reincarnating Glorfindel, and I now know a vauge idea of the why, too! So thank you for that. Meril- thank you for the House stuff- it will come in later in the fic, though I'm not positive how much later, yet! Gotta go, thanx again! SM

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Mole - Maeglin "But the folk of [Maeglin] were drawn up in the same place, and sable was their harness, and they bore no sign or emblem, but their round caps of steel were covered with moleskin, and they fought with axes two-headed like mattocks." No wonder he became a traitor. Who wouldn't? There has gotta be a fic in there (and probably a lot of jokes as well). I mean, who came up with naming one of the Seven Houses after a small, blind rodent, and it just stings that it's the house of the king's nephew. Ouch. Probably not great with the ladies, either. Maeglin: Hi, I'm Maeglin. House of the mole. Elf-maid in bar: Oh, um, cool. Okay, enough harping on poor Maeglin for now. LOL.

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Hi! Another question about Gondolin/ME… Presumably there were precious and semi-precious stones around in ME (The Heavenly Arch, etc), and they were used as decoration on architecture and females (Arwen’s hair in FOTR). But would it be OK to say that rubies could be used to decorate a dress? Or would that be a bit ridiculous? Any help is much appreciated! Thanks! SM

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

I'm not sure meself. If the Elves in question are Noldor, I'd say go for it, as IMO they're rather flamboyant. Just the type to put rubies on a dress. Sindar...no, I wouldn't think so. However, I'm assuming this is Gondolindrim, so...why not? Even if I think it's a bit overmuch...

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

Even if I think it's a bit overmuch... Me too...but then, I guess I'm not an Elf! *thinks* Probably! But my elf (ok, so not really mine, but I can dream! ;)) doesn't really have a lot of taste in such matters! Especially considering when the dress is given... Thanks!!! SM

 

 

Re: Gondolin, Glorfindel and Gil-galad

The Wood-elves of Mirkwood decorated their clothing with green and white gems. (The Hobbit, Chapter VIII - Flies and Spiders) Karri

 

 

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