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Discussing: Noldorin names

Noldorin names

I am currently working on a new fic (hummm... now I know what they mean by defective space spars at Trinity college -- this is interesting) set in Valinor during the rebellion. I have also completely confused myself by reading "The Shibboleth of Feanor" in that I haven't a clue what to be calling the Elves. As a narrator, I am using Sindarized names because Tolkien does it and that is easier to keep track of. As soon as you start using people's Quenya mother and father and Valar only knows what other names, I start losing track of who is who. However, I'm not sure what the Elves call one another, in dialogue, before they got to M-e and would have started using Sindarin as a primary language. Would they use Sindarized names? Or would they use Quenya names, and if so, which ones? Tolkien is a bit confusing on the subject. As far as I have seen, Feanor is the only Exile others in Valinor refer to by name, and in the Silmarillion, they call him "Feanor" and not "Feanaro" or "Curufinwe" or anything else. According to HoME, "Feanor" is a weirdly half-Sindarized version of "Feanaro." Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Turgon, et. al. don't seem to be referred to by name by other characters while in Aman. Anyway, HoME suggests that the Noldor took Sindarin names, or Sindarized whichever of their many names they felt like Sindarizing, after they got to M-e. So it makes sense that they would call one another by Quenya names while still in Valinor. Yet everyone in the Silm from the very first page calls Feanor by his Sindarized name. So, what do you all think?



Re: Noldorin names

Hi Gypsum. IMO, as a non-Silm specialist who gets lost in all of the various names - I'd say go for the more familiar versions. You might lose points with Silmarillion purists, but your story will be much more acecssible to readers. You can always add an author's note explaining that you chose to do it that way, if you're worried about being criticized for not using the "proper" names.



Re: Noldorin names

Forodwaith has a good point, most people wouldn’t know the characters by the Quenya names, let alone be able to keep up with the various mother-names, chosen-names and nicknames they used. BUT – if you want to understand it all better… Have you read the portion of LACE that deals with Elvish naming customs? For what it’s worth there’s a summarized version onsite here. Since I’m ‘hyperlink challenged’ the easiest way to find it might be to search by author, it’s one of the few things I’ve posted here. In Valinor, they definitely would have used their Quenya names – no Sindarin at all until after returning to ME. The way I understand it they would use their Father-names in most public settings and any official capacity. Mother-names, Nicknames (epessë or ‘after-names’) and Chosen names might be used with family or close friends and those who are specifically mentioned as preferring these forms would probably use them in most circumstances. I tried to compile a complete (or nearly so) list of the names and different forms from the Shibboleth of Fëanor: Finwë + Miriel > f. Kurufinwë/ m. Fëanáro/Fayanáro /(S. Fëanor) + Indis > 1. Findis (stayed in Aman) 2. Nolofinwë/ m. Arakáno /(S. Fingolfin) 3. İrimë/İrien/ m. Lalwendë/Lalwen /(S. Lalwen) 4. Arafinwë /(S. Finarfin) Nolofinwë/ (S. Fingolfin) + Anarië (stayed in Aman) > 1.Findekáno/ (S. Fingon) 2.Turkáno / (S. Turgon) + Elenwë > İtaril/İtarildë /(S. Idril) 3.İressë / (S. İreth/Aredhel/Ar-Feiniel) + Eöl > Maeglin 4.Arakáno / (died in first battle/later called in S. Argon) Arafinwë/ (S. Finarfin) + Eärwen (stayed in Aman) 1.T. Findaráto / m. Ingoldo / [Q. Artafindë] / (S. Finrod) 2.T. Angaráto / [Q. Artanga]/ (S. Angrod) + Eldalótë/ (S. Edhellos) > Artaher/ (S. Arothir/ Orodreth) 3.Q. m. Aikanáro / f. Ambaráto / (S. Aegnor) 4.m. Nerwendë/ f. Artanis / Q. n. Altariel / T. Alatāriellë /(S. Galadriel) Fëanáro/Fayanáro /(S. Fëanor) + Nerdanel [daughter of Mahtan /n. Rusco] > Sindarin – father-name – short-form – mother-name – given-name 1. [Maedros] Nelyafinwë /Nelyo / m. Maitimo / n. Russandol 2. [Maglor] Kanafinwë / Káno / m. Makalaurë 3. [Celegorm] Turkafinwë / Turko / m. Tyelkormo 4. [Curufin] Kurufinwë / Kurvo / m. Atarinkë 5. [Caranthir] Morifinwë / Moryo /m. Carnistir 6. [Amrod] Pityafinwë / Pityo / m. Ambarto/ Ambarussa 7. [Amras] Telufinwë / Telvo / m. Ambarussa f. – father-name m. – mother-name ch. – chosen-name n. – epessë / nickname Q. – Quenya T. – Telerin S. – Sindarin I think I got it right, corrections welcome. This, of course, differs somewhat from the info in the Sil. Link to “The Final Eldarin Genealogy” by Michael Maritnez gives the family trees (scroll way down): Well, I had fun with it anyway Ithildin *(



Re: Noldorin names

Thanks for your suggestions. I definitely cannot keep track of all the Silm characters in fics wherein authors start tossing out chosen-names, mother-names, father-names, and so on. I think even if I use use them in dialogue only and use the more familiar, Sindarin names otherwise, it might be confusing ("wait... who is that? who is he talking to?"). Another sort of related question that is subject to many interpretations: I think it stems from the fact that Tolkien was not a very psychological writer. I don't have a copy of the Silm on me at the moment, so I can't quote exactly, but after Feanor and his sons secretly boarded the stolen Teleri ships, took off with them leaving Fingolfin and Finrod's people, and arrived on the shores of M-e, Maedhros asked his father (here I paraphrase), "So, who are we going to go back and get first? Fingon?" And Feanor said, "Haha. They all can stay there in Araman and suck it." And then he burned the ships. Um, this seemed like a semi-stupid question on Maedhros' part. They snuck on board the ships and didn't tell anybody. What did he think they were doing? I am struggling to work out how Feanor communicated to his sons that they were going to steal the ships, without making it readily apparent that they were going to steal the ships. It has to be vague enough so that Maedhros can ask that and not seem completely daft. The best idea I have thus far is that Feanor says that if they don't take action, they will be debating all day who gets to sail first across the straits, which is what they have been doing. He leaves it open whether or not he is coming back, and doesn't say anything about it since he knows not all of his sons will be like, "Yeah... Lets leave everybody! More land for us!" Anyone who knows Elves better have any thoughts?



Re: Noldorin names

Frankly, I don't get the impression that Feanor was in the habit of explaining himself. he probably just said. 'Get your guys and get on the ships'. I also think that Maedhros must have known full-well what was intended and his question was more of a statement of protest than an actual question. Feanor was quite fey by that time. in the HoME version, the youngest twin was still onboard when Feanor set fire to the first ship.



Re: Noldorin names

Had a look at the article cited by Ithildin. I hate weeding through Silmarillion canon vs. HoME canon. So, is or isn't Orodreth a brother of Finrod?



Re: Orodreth - brother or nephew?

In the Sil Orodreth is Finrod, Aegnor and Angrod's brother. But in the HoME version, he is Angrod's son and Finrod's nephew. In most cases where there is conflict we simply take the published version as 'canon' and leave it at that. But Tolkien had put a lot of thought into this particular problem and wrote here (in The Shibboleth of Feanor) that he had finally decided it was best to make Orodreth Angrod's son, and Gil-Galad and Finduilas Orodreth's chidren. This was written before the Sil was published of course, but Christopher did not find these papers till afterwards. So it carries a good bit of weight. However, it is still in conflict with the published Sil, so everyone has to make their own decision which version to go with. Ithildin *(



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