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Discussing: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

I've been hunting through UT and the Sil, have checked the Encyclopedia of Arda and Parma Endorion, and haven't got anywhere with this one.

Does anyone know or care to speculate on whether Oropher/Thranduil's line of Sindarin princes is related to/descended from Thingol himself?

I can't see myself that they could be direct descendants, because Thingol's only child is Luthien, and that line of descent down to Elrond and Elros is pretty clearly set out in the genealogies at the back of the Sil. But I don't know whether there are any other genealogical details anywhere else, eg in HoME.

Is Oropher and Thranduil's line descended from any known royal Sindarin house? Or do they become "princes" by virtue of taking up rule over the Wood-elves of the Greenwood? Or do we just know nothing about their antecedents at all?

Grateful for any nuggets anyone out there has...

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

I'm afraid my only contribution is negative. There is nothing in either Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2, The Lost Road, The Peoples of Middle-earth, or Letters.

I did find a Michael Martinez article at http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/78071
but it only briefly mentions speculation about Oropher being Thingol's kin.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

Unfinished Tales > 2nd Part: The 2nd Age > Appendixes > Appendix B.

There's something along the lines of "relatives and neighbours/friends" of Lorien folk, which I personally think refers to the wood elves, who in fact had relatives in Lorien. Although if you stretch the words really far to fit into what you want, you can understand that as Oropher having relatives in Lorien, maybe even Celeborn himself (sic).

As for "princes", you don't have to inherit a kingdom to be a prince. What makes one a king is a land or a people to rule, and preferably both. Amdir and Oropher had both, no royal blood is needed.

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

As for "princes", you don't have to inherit a kingdom to be a prince. What makes one a king is a land or a people to rule, and preferably both. Amdir and Oropher had both, no royal blood is needed.

In fact, that state of being a ruler is what confers the royalty of blood! If you last through more than two generations, it's a dynasty...

Somewhere I have a long post on this subject (concerning whether Galadriel is counted "among the princes" of the Noldor) but here's yet another example not just from our history, but from Tolkien himself, using the word "prince" to mean other than the way we use it today, just to mean the son of a king.

"...Barahir the bold,
of land bereaved and lordship shorn
who once a prince of Men was born,
and now an outlaw lurked..."

Since the Beorings were never called Kings, and Barahir himself was the younger brother of the lord of the land of Dorthonion, this exerpt from the second Lay of Leithian fragment, which was written right after LOTR was finished, definitely proves that the word Prince can be used to mean any ruler, or ranking member of a ruling house, as it is was used in antiquity in our earth's history.

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

Lyllyn wrote:

I did find a Michael Martinez article at http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/78071
but it only briefly mentions speculation about Oropher being Thingol's kin.


Ah, but thanks very much for that, because it did send me back to LoTR and cause me to connect up two separate snippets which I'd never thought of putting together...

One: At the beginning of Appendix B, under "The Second Age", Celeborn is described as a "kinsman of Thingol".

Two: When Celeborn greets the Fellowship at Caras Galadhon, he says to Legolas, "Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North."

Now, I'd always just skipped over that comment of Celeborn's as meaning "we don't see many Northern Elves down here in Lorien". But he does say my kindred, separating himself out from Galadriel and any other Elves present at that meeting, as though there were a direct connection of kinship.


So if Celeborn is a kinsman of Thingol, and Legolas is a kinsman of Celeborn, there must be scope for some connection between Thingol and Thranduil, though probably not a very direct one?

Michael Martinez takes Celeborn's greeting as an indication of Celeborn identifying himself as a Wood-Elf, because Legolas has previously (in The Ring Goes South, when the Company stop in Hollin) identified himself as "of the silvan folk". But what you identify with culturally isn't necessarily the same thing as who you're related to, and we know from the UT that while the rulers of the Wood-Elves of Mirkwood rather deliberately adopted many of the ways and customs of the Wood-Elves, they were Sindar by descent. The Eregion Elves were mostly Noldor, so they were "of a race strange" to Legolas both by blood and by culture.

I fully take the points about having royalty conferred by the act of ruling - but I'm tempted nonetheless to play with the idea of Thranduil's house being some relation to Thingol. Hmmm....

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

I'm actually pretty sure that I have seen this someplace recently too. I'll review what I've been looking over recently and see what I come up with.
-Kirixchi

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

In "Unfinished Tales" (The History of Galadriel and Celeborn) it discusses the manner of Celeborn's relation to Thingol. The same work speaks a little about Oropher (Thranduil's dad). It is generally assumed that Oropher was a Sindarin refuge of Doriath - it is possible he was a relation of sorts to Thingol (like Celeborn). The difficulty lies in the same section, which says that Oropher moved his people into Mirkwood to get away from Celeborn and Galadriel, whom he saw as a negative influence on the woodelves (as an Exile and her mate who got along with dwarves)

AC

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

I cited some of the text that AC talks about in my Thranduil thread, in the "Bibliography" sub-part.

HTH
-Kirixchi

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

I decided, in the end, for Chapter 13 of Amid the Powers and Chances of the World, to go with the idea that Legolas is related to Thingol - I liked it too much to waste it - but without being specific about exactly what the relationship was. The conversation (with Elrond) in question didn't call for a detailed exposition, fortunately...

I had found the section in Unfinished Tales, but as you point out (like so much in UT relating to Celeborn) it leaves as many questions unanswered as it helps with! Thanks, though, for all the contributions to an intriguing little question...

 

 

Re: Elu Thingol and the Sindarin princes

I've ruminated on a possible descent from a sister of Thingol or daughter of Elmo - but that's mental mischief on my part, and it may contradict canon I haven't read yet.

;),
Elemmire

 

 

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