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Discussing: Numenorian culture in its last days

Numenorian culture in its last days

I asked a lot of these questions on the ML already, but if you have any answers, please post them either on the ML or here! (Thank you very much!)

Were the Elves banned from coming, or did they just stop coming on their own?
Did the greater part of the Numenorians believe in the Valar and just hate them, or did they think the Valar to be fantasies?
Was there a name that the greater part of the Numenorians called the Faithful?
How do you say 'betrayers' in Adunaic(sp)?
How do you say 'wife' in Adunaic?
How do you say 'elves' in Adunaic?
Would they have had mint in Numenor at that time?
How about oranges?
How would you brush your teeth?
How would you brush your hair?
Was there a certain likely hair color/eye color in Numenor?
How old was Inziladun when he took the throne, and how old was he when he
died?

And new questions:

Would there have been silk in Numenor?
Would the king and queen likely have slept in seperate beds except when ... well, you know?
What kind of oils/lotions/fragrances would they have had?
What would have been worn at a wedding ceremony by the bride? The groom?
What would the vows have been like in those last days of Numenor? Would there have been any vows in the first place?

Thanks for any and all help!

~~Vikki

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

Hi there! I can answer most of these questions for you.

Inziladun was born in 3035, and came to the throne at age 142; he reigned 78 years; his daughter Miriel was already an adult by the time he took the Sceptre.

A wife is called "banâth" in Adunaic.

The Faithful were called the Nimruzîrim.

Elves are called "nimir."

Adunaic is not as developed a language as Quenya. I do not know of a word that means "betrayer."

The Elves stopped coming because they were no longer welcome, except in certain places, like Andunie, where they came in secret.

I do not know about mint, but they would have had citrus fruits. There is a region called Nisimaldar, known for its fragrant trees and flowers, and there is a red, round fruit called yavannamírë. Fragrances could be distilled from many of these plants, and lotions made from them. As for oil, parts of Numenor are warm enough for olive trees, mostly in the south where the "star" dips downward; the northern regions are higher and tend to be mountainous and moorland areas. Fish oil might have been used as well, as Nindamos in the south was the central hub for the fishing villages of Numenor.

Hair brushing? I imagine it would have been exactly the same as we do it. As for teeth brushing, there are certain plants and/or woods which, when peeled, can be scrubbed against the teeth to clean them. In the Middle Ages and Renaissance times, gilded toothpicks and tooth cloths were used, though given the state of dental hygeine, this wasn't very effective.

Yes, the Numenoreans would have had silk and the king and queen would have had separate households. Sex and reproduction in a royal or noble household is not a private affair, and the queen's laundresses certainly would have noticed if they stopped receiving menstrual linens.

Tolkien did not write anything about Numenorean marriage customs. You could write a very simple ceremony, in which the father of the bride gives her over to the protection of her husband. I imagine very little ritual was actually involved.

The high Numenoreans were probably dark haired and gray eyed, but I suspect this did not extend to the entire population. You would probably find all types of hair and eye color. Royal Numenoreans were required by law to marry within the Line of Elros, so I don't think you would have seen too much genetic drift.

Hope that helps.
Zimraphel

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

This is all a huge help! *runs off to correct 'Giving to Gain'*

Thank you!

But if anyone else has help, please, please don't hesitate to add ....

~~Vikki

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

Yes, the Numenoreans would have had silk and the king and queen would have had separate households. Sex and reproduction in a royal or noble household is not a private affair, and the queen's laundresses certainly would have noticed if they stopped receiving menstrual linens.

Not to nitpick, but can you tell me what your evidence is for the separate households/separate beds? Yes, historically kings and queens sometimes maintained separate households but that was often because they had to keep traveling in order to access food supplies when transport of bulky goods was difficult, something which might well not have obtained in Numenor. If they shared a household, why would they not have shared a bedroom?

The high Numenoreans were probably dark haired and gray eyed, but I suspect this did not extend to the entire population.

It might have, actually - I can't pull the precise reference out of my head, but I'm almost sure there's a mention somewhere of dark-eyed Gondor-folk being so because of mingling of blood with other races since they came to Middle-earth after the Downfall...

Cel

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

Yes, more modern royalty are recorded as having shared beds, such as Victoria and Albert and George III and Queen Charlotte, but if you look at records of various royal courts, even ones that were fairly stable and did not move around, you will find that most often the king and queen had separate staffs and separate apartments within the same palace. This was true in post-medieval England, 18th century and Napoleon-era France. In the East, in China right up until the modern era, this was true of the Emperor and Empress as well, that they maintained separate households.

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

Hmm... yes, you have a point there, but given that Numenor doesn't correspond precisely to any particular historical era, and Tolkien obviously never specified, I think that the matter remains open. My opinion, of course. Which only really means that if Vikki want separate bedrooms for plot purposes she can have them, and if she wants the royal couple in the same bed she can do that too!

Cel

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

Tolkien did not write anything about Numenorean marriage customs. You could write a very simple ceremony, in which the father of the bride gives her over to the protection of her husband. I imagine very little ritual was actually involved.

It would be logical to assume that the Numenoreans followed many of the same wedding customs as the Eldar. Their close relationship throughout the early years would have established such customs to the point that, even when the Eldar were no longer welcome in Numenor, the customs remained, having been thoroughly integrated into the Numenorean culture.

~Nessime

BTW did you catch the posts re: some of your questions at HA from Lyllyn, Dwim and myself?

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

The high Numenoreans were probably dark haired and gray eyed, but I suspect this did not extend to the entire population. You would probably find all types of hair and eye color. Royal Numenoreans were required by law to marry within the Line of Elros, so I don't think you would have seen too much genetic drift.

I agree that the Line of Elros* would favour the dark haired, grey eyed type, but the population of Numenor was built up of all three Houses of the Edain, so there would be blond people from the House of Hador, with blue or grey eyes, as well as the dark haired Beorians and Haladin.


*although both Tuor and Idril are blond, so that hair colour might crop up now and again in the royal line as well

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

BTW did you catch the posts re: some of your questions at HA from Lyllyn, Dwim and myself?

Yes, I did, and thanks, Nessime! If you read 'Giving to Gain', you'll see that at the end I've credited you for your help. I really appreciate it.

~~Vikki

 

 

Re: Numenorian culture in its last days

If you read 'Giving to Gain', you'll see that at the end I've credited you for your help.

Heck, I wasn't looking for credit - I just wanted to be sure you had all the information you were looking for. It's too easy to loose track of things among all the other posts at HA. It happens to me all the time.

And now I have another story to add to my reading list.

~Nessime

 

 

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